GNOLLS.ORG - Topic: Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/ Simple:Press Version 5.7.5.3 Paul Halliday on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-3/#p8176 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-3/#p8176

J. Stanton said

All plants contain antinutrients.  The important question is "Did our ancestors eat them frequently enough, and for enough generations, that an ability to metabolize or eliminate the antinutrient has arisen and been universally selected for?"  For instance, aspirin is toxic to cats, who have been purely carnivorous for so long that they've lost the ability to metabolize that class of plant toxins.

... Thus my point: just because we eat something for a few months and "feel fine" doesn't mean it's healthy to eat.

JS

... and THAT is exactly why seasonality and localism is so important.

You've said it again and again, "the dose makes the poison"; something that is entirely wrong with the paleo formula. Let nature decide your plate (your intelligence is required here in a modern world of 'Food365' to understand what is in in season, your inner hunter/gatherer to seek out foods ACTUALLY grown in season, not just seasonal) and let fate decide the little things (whether something is in stock at the supermarket, or simply clearing out the reduced section). Not only seasonal, but what's available; what can be "hunted and gathered" in the modern world.

Ha! You and thought I was going to flower into an "everything in moderation" statement. What rot!

]]> Fri, 26 Sep 2014 00:37:12 -0700 J. Stanton on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-3/#p6172 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-3/#p6172 Whitefox:

That's a good point about sweet potatoes.  It's also important to note that there are many different "sweet potatoes", which vary greatly in nutrient and antinutrient content.  (White potatoes are the same.)

All plants contain antinutrients.  The important question is "Did our ancestors eat them frequently enough, and for enough generations, that an ability to metabolize or eliminate the antinutrient has arisen and been universally selected for?"  For instance, aspirin is toxic to cats, who have been purely carnivorous for so long that they've lost the ability to metabolize that class of plant toxins.

That is why I'm more suspicious of antinutrients in Neolithic foods: based on what we know of issues like gluten intolerance, celiac, Hashimoto's, etc., we know that the process of adaptation to Neolithic toxins is incomplete at best.  Thus my point: just because we eat something for a few months and "feel fine" doesn't mean it's healthy to eat. 

(There was a lot of that going around the paleo community when I wrote this article, e.g. "I ate corn for a few months and I feel fine, therefore corn is healthy to eat."  Fortunately, most of the people involved concluded paleo was "too limiting" for them and have explicitly abandoned the term...though a few of them refuse to go away, because they know the paleo community is where the action is.)

And yes, the jury is still out on most of these issues.  Whether and how often you "cheat" is a personal decision that I can't possibly make for anyone.

JS

]]> Fri, 13 Sep 2013 14:58:21 -0700 Whitefox on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-3/#p6171 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-3/#p6171 On the antinutrient topic, what about sweet potatoes and "cyanogenetic glycosides? They block cell breathing, cause gastrointestinal symptoms, influence carbohydrates and calcium transport and cause iodine deficiency deficiency at high doses" (from Adel at SuppVersity)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691500000405

The L-canavanine thing is interesting, but studies on primates and in-vitro cells is still not humans (though the one case study is interesting). It seems like the same thing with MSG - lots of scary rat studies and organ cells and excitotoxicity... but doesn't necessarily pan out in humans (as discussed above).

Also, I know that rice miRNA affects the LDL receptor in humans, but we haven't seen to what extent (if any) this has on long-term health. Cultures who eat rice+beans and sweet potatoes aren't dying in droves from autoimmunity or other ailments. I understand (and agree with) not eating certain things as a precaution (I don't eat gluten), but with less well-defined antinutrient effects I don't see legumes/milk/certain veggies being shunned anytime soon.

Examples: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21206508
http://synapse.koreamed.org/search.php?where=aview&id=10.4162%2Fnrp.2013.7.3.185&code=0161NRP&vmode=FULL

]]> Fri, 13 Sep 2013 14:38:25 -0700 J. Stanton on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p5101 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p5101 Dr. Basko:

It seems to my untutored eye that pet food is generally made to be cheap, not healthy: I see no evidence that corn and wheat are part of the ancestral diet of anything in order Carnivora.

Feel free to share your thoughts here, or on the forums.

JS

]]> Sat, 19 Jan 2013 22:49:09 -0800 Ihor Basko, DVM on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p5098 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p5098 Great and thought provoking website.

Being a veterinarian, I have similar beliefs about pet food.

]]> Fri, 18 Jan 2013 01:46:33 -0800 J. Stanton on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p4154 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p4154 Stefani:

I remember that!  It takes "you are what you eat" to a whole new level.  Not only are our bodies made out of food, food directly alters our gene expression.  Wow!

JS

]]> Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:39:50 -0700 Stefani Ruper on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p4133 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p4133 Hey JS! This reminds me of a post I read over at Evolvify, in which Andrew discusses how plant miRNAs insert themselves into human genes. Creepy.

(Link)

]]> Wed, 06 Jun 2012 05:50:38 -0700 J. Stanton on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3909 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3909 Kenneth:

That's a great example of exactly the point I'm trying to communicate.  Thank you for bringing it up!

JS

]]> Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:42:37 -0700 Kenneth Shonk on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3898 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3898 Here is an example of science counter indicating traditional folk wisdom. Aristolochic acid (AA), a derivative of te Aristolochia plant and an ingredinet used in Asian botanical remedies for weight loss, joint pain, stomach aliments, gout, and childbirth has now been found to be a potent carcinogen – it carries serious risks of causing kidney disease and urinary cancers. It is thought to be responsible for 50% of such cancers in Taiwan. The latest research found it can interact with a person's DNA and form unique biomarkers of exposure, as well as creating signals within tumor suppressing genes that indicate the carcinogen has been ingested. In Taiwan, where previous research has shown about one-third of the population has taken AA in recent years, rates of urinary tract and kidney cancer are about four times higher than in Western countries where use is less common. After being ingested, AA forms a unique kind of lesion in the renal cortex, and also gives rise to a particular mutational signature in the TP53 tumor suppressing gene, said the study. The herb is known in Europe by the name birthwort because it was often given to women during childbirth. from Newsmax Health e-mail 4/10/12 – http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/health_stories/cancer…. Proof ancient wisdom is not always so wise.

]]> Sun, 29 Apr 2012 01:36:15 -0700 J. Stanton on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3883 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3883 Simon:

You're correct that domestication is a special case, and you're correct that domestication has had great survival value for a few species.  (At the price of great suffering -- but natural selection doesn't care if you're happy.)

In the case of animals, domestication makes them more defenseless -- slower, fatter, and more tame.  However, the plant case is less clear.  Certainly we breed plants to be less bitter, bigger, and tastier, decreasing their toxicity...but, at the same time, we breed them for traits like insect and fungus resistance, which increases their toxicity.  (For instance, corn gluten meal is used as an herbicide.)

I'm glad you enjoy my work!

Paul:

We're trying to make laboratory science, biochemistry, evolutionary biology, and anthropology meet on some sort of common ground.  It's a hard problem!

JS

]]> Fri, 27 Apr 2012 00:25:05 -0700 Paul Halliday on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3858 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3858 J. Stanton said:

Paul:

I'm not discounting the value of anecdotal evidence: if it weren't for historical and cultural knowledge, we would know very little about nutrition!  What I'm demonstrating is that N=1 personal experimentation can't tell us whether a Neolithic food is bad for us in the long term, or not -- and such pronouncements, even if they're made by a paleo "authority", are worthless.

I may write a complementary article sometime about what we can learn from personal, anecdotal, cultural, and historical evidence!

JS

Absolutely, J - I am certain that we're saying the very same thing, perhaps missing the subtlety of how each of us use our common language.

We simply have not had anything like long enough to make pronouncements about neolithic food.

I talk a lot about principles. Our ancestors would have lived by principles to guide them when they encountered new potential foods - can it be eaten raw is one which is very simple and works well within nature. This pushes grains and beans out. We can observably and even biochemically eat these once processed, but even then, who can say about long term use?

]]> Wed, 25 Apr 2012 13:05:50 -0700 Simon on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3853 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3853 Great article as ever!

One thing however - On the topic of "Food Doesn't Want to Be Eaten"

It is not necessarily the case that being less desirable as a food leads to increased reproductive success. On the contrary, take corn and chicken for example. Both of these species are highly successful because we like eating them.

Though an individual chicken or corn plant may not "want" to be eaten, it is because their DNA have been selected to code for attributes that make them appealing to humans as food choices that they have become so successful in evolutionary terms.

]]> Wed, 25 Apr 2012 08:49:20 -0700 J. Stanton on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3789 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3789 Jesse:

I'm glad it resonates for you!

Paul:

I'm not discounting the value of anecdotal evidence: if it weren't for historical and cultural knowledge, we would know very little about nutrition!  What I'm demonstrating is that N=1 personal experimentation can't tell us whether a Neolithic food is bad for us in the long term, or not -- and such pronouncements, even if they're made by a paleo "authority", are worthless.

I may write a complementary article sometime about what we can learn from personal, anecdotal, cultural, and historical evidence!

JS

]]> Thu, 19 Apr 2012 17:37:01 -0700 Paul Halliday on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3783 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3783 After 'Eat Like a Predator', I think this is my favourite post, too.

I would just like to drop something in about the idea of anecdotes, N=1, experimentation, or whatever we call is versus cold/hard science ...

What about "old wive's tales"? What about passed on generational wisdom? There's truth in them, there tales, you know ...

Some may be familiar with the DIKW construct - data, information, knowledge and wisdom, the development from data to wisdom.

I am not at all stating an opinion contrary to Miki because I found that article very sound and very much full of straight down the line good sense, but I hope my thoughts perhaps soften the edges and maybe give it some depth.

We are on "page one of a huge book called 'Human Nutrition'", a J often says. We also have millennia of human history showing us what is right to eat. Very recently, in evolutionary terms, we have science. Science provides us with the data. An applied scientist could turn that into information. A well read person could translate that into knowledge, but it takes generations of anecdotes, experimentation and N=1 to produce wisdom.

]]> Thu, 19 Apr 2012 14:10:50 -0700 Jesse on Anti-Nutritionism, L-Canavanine, And The Limitations of N=1 Self-Experimentation http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3777 Comment Threads http://www.gnolls.org/forums/comment-threads/anti-nutritionism-l-canavanine-and-the-limitations-of-n1-self-experimentation/page-2/#p3777 Thanks for this. My favorite post of yours so far, though it could just be the timing....

This will be my goto link to forward to people instead of trying to give my feeble explanation of what a robust diet is, I mean it in terms of "not going to fail in light of innaccurate or insufficient information".

]]> Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:37:43 -0700