Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Why Humans Crave Fat
sp_BlogLink Read the original blog post
September 8, 2011
4:00 pm
Avatar
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2045
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Steven:

I can't cover every possible subject of concern, so I'll hand that one over to Jamie Scott:

http://thatpaleoguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/carnosine.....ancer.html

Takeaway: vegetarians are more likely to get bowel cancer than meat-eaters (link to AJCN paper).  Like most anti-meat propaganda, "red meat causes colon cancer" is made-up baloney.

Edit to add: And the most likely reason is that they're driven by ethical concerns, so they bend the science in an attempt to convert the people who aren't persuaded by the ethical arguments.  (Which are mostly hogwash...but that's another article.)

JS

September 8, 2011
6:12 pm
Steven
Guest

WOW. Just read all that stuff you linked. I can't believe how I have been persuaded by the birdseed brigade, on so many points, one of which is that eating beef is a very inefficient way to get protein, based on how much grain they need to eat, etc. I never saw a rebuttal of that until now (article bashing the ethical superiority of vegetarianism). I can't believe Denmark is taxing butter, eggs and meat; it's a nightmare. You can see it beginning in US too, with a sugar tax on beverages (I think it was defeated), which would lead to a fat tax inevitably. They need to rein in diabesity, no doubt, but I fear they will do it precisely as Denmark did, which set a precedent, and attack the same foods. The Paleo message, no, actually I should say "basic science" is not getting out to the public.
Funny, odd story. I tried to buy grass-fed beef at a kosher market, and the owner, a vegetarian (?) had it, BUT, he mixes it with grain-fed beef, not distinguishing between them. Aghast, I asked why and he responded that his customers just care about kosher. I tried to tell him he is wrong and that he should put out grass-fed separately, but he would not believe there is a market for it. How can a butcher think that? He has the grass-fed and mixes it. So, I do not have anywhere to buy grass-fed beef right now.

September 9, 2011
1:28 am
Avatar
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2045
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Steven:

Tell your butcher you'll pay him a bit extra for grass-fed, tell him what cuts you want and how much of each you'll buy, and I bet he'll save some for you.  Money talks.

Don't count on the message getting out to the public by normal means: as I explain here, there is a lot of profit to be made by pushing expensive products made from artificially cheap raw materials.  We'll have to keep moving it forward by ourselves, one person at a time.

JS

September 9, 2011
6:24 pm
Steven
Guest

Sorry to bother you again, but I am having trouble figuring out which are the fatty cuts of beef; what do you recommend? All the sites I find are biased towards lean, and I have not been a beef eater for decades, so I really don't know beef. I ate maybe four hotdogs a year. I cannot afford the best, marbled cuts, which is what I see in researching this. I am looking for the cheaper, fatty, cuts. I think it's complicated because tougher cuts require more involved cooking, so perhaps you can point me to an article by someone where this is gone into a bit? I regularly go to India, where they, for good reasons, don't eat cows, given that, after it has given you curd, milk, and ghee for many years, it is heartless then to eat it as soon as it cannot give milk. But, your argument is so convincing look at me now!I might foray into goat now that I have said this. Do you think highly of goat, because I reckon it might priced lower than beef, but I never thought about it. There must be a reason no one eats it though. There's no McDonald goat burger, after all. Your article on veggies rotting in the gut, not meat, has pushed me further away from my usual fare. To think of animal fat as good is as far from my intuitions as conceivable. Lean meat is as far as I thought I could go, but I am getting convinced of the fat argument, almost to my utter disgust. Even Atkins never stressed animal fat, only protein, so this is radical. I have never seen animal fat spoken of in positive terms until this site, and I am still digesting it, so to speak. It don't go down easy.
Thanks for this incredibly evocative site.

September 10, 2011
3:29 am
Avatar
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2045
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Steven:

Are you looking to buy mail-order, or to tell your butcher what to get?

The cheapest fatty cut is cheap hamburger...the more fat, the cheaper it gets.  80/20 is universal, but a lot of places will sell 73/27. 

A lot of it has to do with whether the cut is trimmed or not: most cuts start with a huge lip of fat around the edge, which the butcher trims off because most people are fat-phobic.  If you have a local butcher, you can ask him to leave more of the fat on.

Rib steaks have a lot of fat but are expensive: chuck has a lot of fat
and is cheaper, but has a lot more connective tissue and is tougher. 
Tri-tip is an American cut of bottom sirloin (in many countries they
just grind it for hamburger) that is well-marbled and has a lot of fat
if you get it untrimmed. 

I can't write you a guide to beef cuts, but this is a good start:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Beef#American_primal_cuts

Also, you can read this list and do exactly the opposite:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cuts-of-beef/MY01387

JS

September 10, 2011
1:44 pm
Avatar
Halifax, UK
Gnoll
Forum Posts: 364
Member Since:
June 5, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
Brisket is my clear favourite - great slow-cooker and such amazing flavour.

I don't even concern myself with the fat content - for me, fat means flavour and even before moving over to paleo this was a "cultinary fact" for northern English culture. Same for butter, same for cream - just eat it!

Steven - Without moving over to paleo, I would have had no idea that it is excess carbohydrate which keeps us fat. It really is contrary to conventional wisdom, but we've held out against conventional wisdom for a long time here "up north". Cutting out all grains and beans has been my major step into paleo. I never ate processed food and almost no sugar. I do maintain dairy - culturally, we're very tolerant and the probiotics in fermented dairy are great! Dairy is a paleo treat and it is easy to consume a lot of fat and calories very quickly with dairy - use it wisely.

Have fun! I hope you enjoy your journey into paleo.

Living in the Ice Age
http://livingintheiceage.pjgh.co.uk

September 10, 2011
4:21 pm
Steven
Guest

Thanks, guys. I confess it is difficult to contend when even the sites selling meat tell you to go lean. Animal fat has few supporters, even the cattlemen, so your voices help me.
I just ate chicken which was lean; should I have taken some coconut oil after the meal? I am conscious when eating lean meat now, so I would appreciate knowing what you do when you eat lean poultry.
I still eat goat's milk yogurt, since even though it is pasteurized, they add the bacteria again. I still fear the calories in animal and all fat, and worry that I am just adding extra calories, while wanting to lose pounds.

September 11, 2011
8:22 am
Avatar
Halifax, UK
Gnoll
Forum Posts: 364
Member Since:
June 5, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I wouldn't obsess too much about it. When you've a moment (or two), read J's articles on satiety and satiation. Eating paleo is about eating normally and naturally - eat well, eat real food and remove all traces of things which will contribute biochemically to your early death, so grains, beans, some pulses, sugar and all processed foods.

Again, don't obsess - if you have something sweet, great! Enjoy it! Don't make sugar a principle source of energy; make fat your principle source of energy. Carbohydrate is fine - there are carbs in all sort of things, but keep them down. Blowing out on a baked potato once a week for one meal is also fine - metabolic flexibility, and again J has an article on this.

Did I say don't obsess? If you eat lean meat, that's fine. Chicken is good, but do enjoy the skin and do enjoy those darker meats like the thighs, which make an excellent two hour stew. If you eat lean beef, lamb, whatever, great! Throw some avocado oil over a salad with it, maybe eat some guacamole with it, toss some streaky bacon through cabbage or any other idea for adding a little fat in.

You don't need to measure - just eat! Eat good, real food, making meat, fish, eggs and vegetables your plate every time. Easy ... you'll find your balance ... and you'll undertstand that balance after reading the 'satiation series'.

Living in the Ice Age
http://livingintheiceage.pjgh.co.uk

September 12, 2011
10:12 pm
Avatar
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2045
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Steven:

Paul has it nailed, and I've said this before...

Eating real whole foods that are rich in fat is good.  Adding a bunch of fat to something because you think it'll make you lose weight is counterproductive.

So: eat fatty cuts of meat, sautee your veggies in coconut oil and butter (ghee, if you're in India...make sure to get real ghee, not the fake stuff that is basically margarine), use the leftover bacon grease to cook hash browns and/or eggs, use extra-virgin olive oil on your salads.  But don't be chugging heavy cream because you think it'll make you lose weight.

JS

September 18, 2011
6:40 pm
Steven
Guest

I am wondering if the cattle these days have been bred for less fat just like the manipulation of crops?

I bought and prepared chuck steak, which was not bad, but I wonder if it would have been more fatty in the past?

Thanks.

September 19, 2011
2:42 pm
Avatar
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2045
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Steven:

Much of the variation comes in the butchering: since most people are fat-phobic, butchers trim steaks closely, e.g. they trim most or all of the fat off the outside.
Fat comes in two major places: intramuscular ("marbling") and subcutaneous.  Marbled cuts are generally more tender because the fat breaks up the meat, but all cattle have plenty of subcutaneous fat, which ends up around the edge of most cuts but usually gets trimmed off.

To get more fat, you might have to ask the butcher to trim your cuts less closely.  It might even be cheaper, as they often end up throwing away the fat!

"Chuck" can be cut any number of different ways, and usually has a respectable amount of fat to it.  The round steaks and roasts are generally the leanest and to be avoided.  Sirloin will have a substantial lip of fat to it before the butcher trims it, as do the rib cuts (including rib steaks).  Tri-tip has a big lip of fat on the bottom if the butcher doesn't trim it off.

JS

September 20, 2011
3:23 pm
Steven
Guest

Thanks. I had to google what tri-tip was! I buy meat at a supermarket, where it is pre-packed. Do people ask that department to cater to their personal wants on-the-spot? I am not aware of this. I am new to the red meat world, having eaten poultry exclusively my whole adult life.

September 21, 2011
4:29 pm
Avatar
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2045
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Steven:

Does the supermarket have a meat counter with a person behind it -- or is it just a refrigerator case with meat on Styrofoam trays?

If the latter, you're out of luck.  If the former, usually the people there are getting primal cuts (i.e. a whole 15-20# standing rib roast) and chopping them into steaks and individual roasts, and you can probably ask them for untrimmed chuck, sirloin, or whatever.

JS

September 23, 2011
5:22 pm
Steven
Guest

Great! I think I will.

What cut of beef do you think McDonald's uses? It never occurred to me before. All this red meat is affecting my brain; I have never even thought about this. Might as well ask what cut would Hebrew National use in franks?

I snack less now at night. But, in the morning it is more difficult. I eat eggs, but at work I find myself hungry, and I can't think of a meat snack I could eat at the time of day. end up with nutbars, etc. Wish I could stymie my need to over-consume when at work in the mornings.

September 24, 2011
12:29 pm
DT
Guest

steven: gotta entrain the ghrelin/leptin brother.  learn to enjoy the hunger and the H-Bombish energy and clarity it brings!

J.S. : You have helped make Wed my favorite day of the week.  That and Fri at MDA for the real life stories.  Keep writing and I'll keep reading.  And dont lose the straight forward way of writing.  You remind me of myself-shooting from the hip with no apologies for what you believe.  More bloggers could use this kind of confidence.  

Peace  

September 26, 2011
4:32 pm
Steven
Guest

Does anyone make their own mayo? It is impossible to buy pure olive oil mayo, but it sounds tricky to make it. For use exclusively with tuna.

September 26, 2011
6:01 pm
Avatar
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2045
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

DT:

It might look like shooting from the hip, but in reality, it's very carefully prepared.  As anyone who's tried to learn acting knows, it takes a lot of practice to look natural.

I'm glad I've inspired you.  Have you read The Gnoll Credo yet?

Steven:

Cook extra dinner and bring the leftovers to work for lunch.

No, I've never made my own mayo.  Tuna tastes great just in extra virgin olive oil, by the way.

JS

September 27, 2011
4:57 pm
Steven
Guest

"When we eat animal proteins in the traditional ways (for example, eating fish head soup, as well as the muscles, or “head-cheese” as well as pork chops, and chicken-foot soup as well as drumsticks), we assimilate a large amount of glycine and gelatin. This whole-animal balance of amino acids supports all sorts of biological process, including a balanced growth of children's tissues and organs.

When only the muscle meats are eaten, the amino acid balance entering our blood stream is the same as that produced by extreme stress, when cortisol excess causes our muscles to be broken down to provide energy and material for repair. The formation of serotonin is increased by the excess tryptophan in muscle, and serotonin stimulates the formation of more cortisol, while the tryptophan itself, along with the excess muscle-derived cysteine, suppresses the thyroid function.

A generous supply of glycine/gelatin, against a balanced background of amino acids, has a great variety of antistress actions. Glycine is recognized as an “inhibitory” neurotransmitter, and promotes natural sleep. Used as a supplement, it has helped to promote recovery from strokes and seizures, and to improve learning and memory. But in every type of cell, it apparently has the same kind of quieting, protective antistress action. The range of injuries produced by an excess of tryptophan and serotonin seems to be prevented or corrected by a generous supply of glycine. Fibrosis, free radical damage, inflammation, cell death from ATP depletion or calcium overload, mitochondrial damage, diabetes, etc., can be prevented or alleviated by glycine.

Some types of cell damage are prevented almost as well by alanine and proline as by glycine, so the use of gelatin, rather than glycine, is preferable, especially when the gelatin is associated with its normal biochemicals. For example, skin is a rich source of steroid hormones, and cartilage contains “Mead acid,” which is itself antiinflammatory."

May I ask what "Paleons", if you will, make of this intriguing argument, particularly that eating only muscle is unbalanced and also, not what our ancestors ate? Not that I want to do this, but, for logical consistency...

September 28, 2011
12:26 am
Avatar
Halifax, UK
Gnoll
Forum Posts: 364
Member Since:
June 5, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

To correct a misconception - many paleo eaters DO eat nose to tail and everything in between, all the offals, bones for stew, heads for stock, skin, subcutaneous fat ... and the muscle meat.

Living in the Ice Age
http://livingintheiceage.pjgh.co.uk

September 28, 2011
6:10 pm
Avatar
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2045
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Steven:

Oh no!  You've found the Ray Peat vortex!

"the amino acid balance in the blood stream is the same as produced by extreme stress".  That's because extreme stress leads to catabolism, where your body breaks down its own tissues.  The amino acid balance is not the CAUSE of the extreme stress.  Basic logical error.

I'm not going to start arguing with Ray Peat articles, as they go on forever and contain so many confident assertions (some well-supported, some speculative, some false...and the degree of confidence is always 100% regardless) that it's like arguing with a tidal wave.  What's even worse, Ray Peat doesn't link any of his citations -- and as I've said before, the odds are very good that anyone who publishes Internet articles but doesn't link their citations is either monumentally lazy, or is trying to mislead you by making it difficult to determine whether they're accurately representing the citation.  

I'm not interested in doing Ray Peat's work for him.  If he can write endless multi-page articles, he can damn well spend a few minutes linking his footnotes to PubMed so others can check his work.

But if you're still worried, just eat some gelatin now and again.

JS

Forum Timezone: America/Los_Angeles

Most Users Ever Online: 46

Currently Online:
10 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1583

Members: 4508

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 2

Topics: 247

Posts: 6893

Administrators: J. Stanton: 2045