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Wildflower Riot! And The State Of The Paleo Community
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October 15, 2011
6:07 pm
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First-Eater
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Robbo:

Exactly.  It's just like the people who claim the success of (for instance) the Esselstyn diet is because it eliminates meat...when it also eliminates "vegetable oil", sugar, white flour, and many other unhealthy foods.

Rafael:

The question, of course, is "Why does my current set point involve more bodyfat than I'd like?"

The fact that you've moved it downward with your current dietary modifications means that "set points" aren't magic: as I said, they're just a homeostasis we don't fully understand.  But without knowing much more about your current diet, exercise, state of health, etc., I can't possibly offer any suggestions.

Beowulf:

Exactly.  There's a reason I say in "Eat Like A Predator" that "If it's a fake version of something else, it's not food."

"Net effective carbs" is a bogus concept, and so is "nut flour".  Nuts are generally high in linoleic acid, low in complete protein, and contain many lectins similar to grains...I suspect that many of the people who claim they can't lose weight on "low-carb" or paleo are eating lots of nuts.  Again, there's a reason I treat them as a condiment, not an ingredient.

Tyler:

It'll be interesting to see if you actually lose any weight, i.e. if you're consuming so many less calories with meals that it makes up for all the calories in the ELOO.

I'll definitely find and read a copy on your recommendation.

eddie:

I don't agree with the monolithic dairy ban, either.  "Dairy" is not one product.  Remember that butter (100% fat with impurities) is not the same as cheese (mostly casein, some fat) or whole milk (mix of whey protein, casein, butterfat, and lactose).

I find it very difficult to make an argument for fat in meat but against butter.  Lactose depends on your ability to digest it...casein is where things get tricky, and that's probably a whole post in itself.

If a "set point" can be moved by diet, that proves it's a homeostasis between diet and some other factors.

Paul:

"Eat like your grandmother" doesn't have the same ring to it.

Daniel:

The US has dramatically changed its welfare structure...but in the UK it seems like one can basically sit on the dole their entire life, with housing, food, and a small income all provided by directly by the government.  (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Nancy:

I'm not used to being held up as a good example...that's wonderful!  I hope his students were inspired to write some great essays.

As far as thyroid: in that case, reverse T3 (rT3) might be your problem...was that measured in the labs you had?

JS

 

More soon, I promise...I'm having a busy weekend (with houseguests.)

October 15, 2011
8:04 pm
Daniel
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Yeah I'm not trying to play the Neo-con game here; we alot more conservative with our welfare than ANY country in the EU. But I hear Thomas Jefferson's and John Adams' words in my head- they warned us what would happen to our country if we let conglomerates, banks, and PACs have more power than we do. Money talks and walks, and the founders are rolling in their graves. I think our last true refuge besides our own minds is the Web. At least here we can talk, share ideas, disagree, and build things, all without interference(much). I'm thankful for it, for I've met some awesome people and learned so many things.
--tangential much??? ;). I can talk about anything....

October 16, 2011
1:53 pm
eddie watts
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it is possible for someone to sit on the dole their entire life in the uk yes.

you only live once though, not a great way to live.

as to the "entire post needed about casein" is that in the pipes then? i'd like to know more about it, i think i am fine with it but in all honesty might not notice unless issues are obvious

October 16, 2011
1:59 pm
eddie watts
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it is possible for someone to sit on the dole their entire life in the uk yes.

you only live once though, not a great way to live.

as to the "entire post needed about casein" is that in the pipes then? i'd like to know more about it, i think i am fine with it but in all honesty might not notice unless issues are obvious

October 16, 2011
2:05 pm
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Gnoll
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It is perhaps a cop-out to say that we are products of our environment, but when an entire generation is put out of work by direct government policy – that's miners (particularly), ship builders, train builders and steel workers – and no help with re-training or re-employment it is no wonder that their kids grow up in an entirely new type of world: one of benefits and handouts.

They've seen their parents do whatever it is they do to get more cash than the dole and seen a few (maybe one percent) drag themselves out of it. They are a new generation bred on benefits.

No incentive and no hope.

That is the reality of today's unemployed youth in modern Britain. Yes, they can live … on benefits. I agree. It is no life – it is existence.

Sadly, entrepreneuralism is not an answer. I mean, how much crap can we buy when there is no money to buy it with? These people need jobs. They're not you and me – they just want to live, somehow. They're not interested in a big picture or a better life; they just want to live.

We've gone so far down the rabbit hole now that I wonder if we'll come out the same. Many of us here will celebrate the fall of capitalism and relish the life without rules, without bounds beyond. Russia came through it and so did the former Soviet Union in Eastern Europe. African is always going through it.

Those of us here in the first world reading this on the internet in our safe houses should pause a minute and wonder … what if it all goes?

It could … in an instant … any time.

Living in the Ice Age
http://livingintheiceage.pjgh.co.uk

October 16, 2011
2:25 pm
Bob Kaplan
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I think we should do-away with the term "set-point" from the perspective of obesity and fat regulation.

I don't think that people who were once obese and now are slim have "reset their set-point," rather there is a settling point.

Your weight settles at a fat mass which is not predetermined by an adipostat. It's more likely that there is a competition of forces inside the body that ultimately demonstrates homeostasis. In a healthy individual, the forces at play ultimately result in a 'normal' weight and body composition.

Perhaps someone becomes hyperinsulinemic and insulin resistant and as a result accumulates fat to the extent that they are considered morbidly obese. They might also have damage to their mitochondria and they might improve their ATP production through the mechanism of obesity, as Peter at Hyperlipid postulated.

If we're hyperglycemic, we don't talk about resetting the 'glucostat,' rather we need to get to the underlying abnormality or abnormalities that is/are causing the high blood glucose and it's not that someone left the thermostat on too high.

The lake metaphor is apt where we might look at the water level of a lake over a period of several decades and notice that it fluctuates here and there, but overall there appears to be a set-point of the lake. Something must be regulating the water level of the lake for it to remain so constant over time, right? Wrong, and the fact that we don't understand how the lake seems to keep a relatively consistent level of water does not rule out the idea that set point is wrong in the explanation of why we get fat.

October 16, 2011
4:58 pm
Daniel
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@Paul Halliday- nicely put. Reminds me of Tyler Durden's speech near the end of Fight Club. In fact, alot of what has been said lately reminds me of that. In all honesty I have a similar dream.

October 16, 2011
9:48 pm
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Jim Purdy:

Reality wins all arguments.  But there's not enough time to trial and error every option: the role of science and knowledge is so we can spend as little time as possible trying things that don't work. 

Welcome to gnolls.org: do stick around!

Diane:

Yes, that's definitely locoweed!  I didn't know it grew in such harsh environments...that ridge is, quite literally, alpine tundra.

Re: weight, some people start losing it right away and some take a while.  I've seen cases where someone's weight didn't budge for 2-3 months, and my ownbody composition was still slowly changing six months later.  Your metabolism got screwed up over a period of many years!  Don't expect it to fix itself in a week or two.

Besides, you're in a much better spot already re: hunger, right?  You're not losing weight yet, but you're not hungry all the time either.

I can't offer much advice without knowing much more about your diet...but common pitfalls include eating too many nuts (esp. nut flours and nut butters) and consuming liquid calories of any kind.  The only thing you should be drinking is water -- with occasional tea, coffee, or mate.  Remember, the point should be nutrient density, not fat for fat's sake...fat just comes along for the ride with foods like whole eggs and untrimmed red meats.

misha:

Good call.  Overcooked liver is...ecch.  Anything rich and creamy (reductions are good too) will help a lot.  Beef liver is a reason to have a cast iron pan: I'm not sure you can get a non-stick pan hot enough.

Paul:

That's beautiful!

Daniel:

Absolutely.  Fractional reserve banking is a scam, for which any individual would go to jail for fraud.

eddie:

Yes, it's a crap way to live: that's exactly why I say "creating a permanent dependent underclass is a bad idea".  Social dysfunction is basically guaranteed.  As Paul says below, "no incentive, no hope."

Paul:

Exactly.  No incentive, no hope.

Russia didn't "come through it"...it's been destroyed by it.  Their population is falling because the entire country is so hopelessly corrupt that people don't even bother to have kids.

"What if it all goes?"  Page 1 of The Gnoll Credo tells you everything you need to know.

Bob Kaplan:

Exactly.  People talk about "set point" like it's a thermostat, but that's silly.  Your body makeup is a consequence of your genetics, diet, activity, etc.  If you "go on a diet" and all you do is force yourself to eat less, you haven't changed any of the factors that caused you to be fat -- so obviously your weight will return when your restraint fails, as it almost always does. 

The fact that people change their "set point" by eating low-carb, eliminating wheat, etc. clearly demonstrates the fact that set point isn't magical.  It's a homeostatic equilibrium.

Daniel:

Be careful what you ask for!  I'm hoping for for a smoother transition, myself...you've read The Gnoll Credo, so I won't rehash it here.

JS

October 17, 2011
1:22 am
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Gnoll
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I should perhaps clarify - what I wanted to convey about Russia, the former Soviet Unions nations and African States is that when the structure of society ceases or is removed dramatically, like the withdrawl of central structure support, the toppling of a leader or a sudden switchover in politics, that the "reboot" seems to happen quite quickly. People addapt. There is a period of unsettlement and beyond that new structures emerge. That's what I mean by "coming through" it. The period of lawlessness in the middle is one where TGC become very important.

It is important for forge social relationships with neighbours, friends, local groups and so on anyway, but important for if a group reaction is needed against a sudden threat - this could be anything from the Council closing down a local childrens' play area right through to the total collapse of society. In tribal terms, this is instinctual but we are far from living instinctually today.

There are a number of writers who understand that paleo goes way beyond food, feeding, rearing and consuming, it goes into personal responsibility and into soceital responsibility. J is one of these writers, Richard Nikoley another. 

Living in the Ice Age
http://livingintheiceage.pjgh.co.uk

October 17, 2011
12:43 pm
Diane
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Regarding wildflowers, being annuals, the plants are dead during the harsh season with the seeds lying in wait. So whether that dormant season is a harsh winter like your area or a harsh summer like mine, doesn't matter too much to the plant. I'd say that it's the quality of the soil that annuals seem to like best: poor soil with full sun. You get that in the alpine areas and I get that on exposed rocky hillsides. This would explain (to me anyway) why many of the same flowers grow in both desert and alpine climates.

I'm staying the course for that day when I finally lose weight. I don't drink any calories, except one cup of coffee with cream and I'm not doing anything like trying to simulate baked goods with almond flour or anything like that. My hunger seems to have come back a little.

I read article IV in your hungry series (I think that was the one) and that seems to fit me to a T. I think I'm hopelessly broken. I'm not even obese, nor have I ever been. I have simply always been overweight. The best I've ever come is right at the upper edge of any body mass or weight charts and I've never quite slipped over into the obese category.

If you find a cure for the broken metabolism in all your research, I'm going to be very happy to read it.

October 18, 2011
12:32 pm
Greg
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Diane,

I'm not telling you that this is the solution, but personally I did alternate day fasting for 2 days per week for several weeks. At first I would be ravenously hungry on the refeeds, but gradually my hunger reduced. I lost about 7 more pounds after landing on my keto-plateau (keteau?) and the weight has stayed off. But mostly I find it interesting how a handful of nuts or an egg can satiate me now. It wasn't always that easy, and I think the ADF permanently changed something. It's easy and low-risk, so think about it at least.

October 18, 2011
7:20 pm
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Paul:

The Gnoll Credo is even more important afterward.  If we replace the current structures of "civilization" with similar structures, we'll end up in similar situations with similar problems.

History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme...and we've heard enough verses of the same song to know how each one ends.  War, famine, totalitarianism, collapse; verse, chorus, verse, chorus.

Diane:

You're right: under natural conditions, annuals only flourish continually under conditions hostile to perennials -- poor soil, underlying impenetrable hardpan (e.g. the Serengeti), or extensive herds of grazers and browsers.  Otherwise the natural succession takes hold and we get bushes, trees, etc.

Here are a couple hacks you might try.  It's best to change one thing at a time so you know what's doing what.  Let me know if any of them help.

-More fat calories from coconut oil, instead of butter/cream/dairy.

-Creatine supplementation -- especially if you're eating no (or not much) red meat.

-Fasting, as per Greg.  You might try IF first: eat breakfast and dinner, but no lunch (12-hour fast).  Then, once that becomes easy, try a full 24 hours: breakfast, but no lunch or dinner.  If you have the scheduling flexibility, it's best to wait until you're actually hungry to eat breakfast.

Personally I'd try them in the above order...but do what you like. 

Also keep in mind that, especially if you're active, the PHD recommendation of ~15-20% of calories from carbs may help.

Greg:

ADF is powerful, but I'm loath to recommend a full 24 hours for someone who's still struggling with adaptation.  I agree, though, that there is benefit to pushing yourself a little bit.  Sometimes we think we can't do something when it's purely a mental block.

Anecdotally, women seem to prefer eating a protein-heavy breakfast (often a late breakfast) and skipping lunch to simply skipping breakfast.  I'm experimenting with that myself.

JS

October 19, 2011
6:45 am
eddie watts
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can you enlighten me/other readers on the creatine supplementation?

typically it is recommended for strength/size gains so i am wondering how it aids fat loss?

October 19, 2011
10:27 pm
JL
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JS - Your analysis of Russia's demographics is an over simplification and also somewhat outdated. Falling population is the result of a high death rate as well as a low birth rate (itself not only the result of corruption) and emigration. The country has actually experienced a mini baby boom over the past ten years with relative stability and economic growth. The real grimness lies in the death rate due to a number of factors including smoking and drinking, cultural norms, etc.

Paul's point is an excellent one. Having witnessed first hand how social and political structures completely break down and then are slowly replaced, I see many parallels with what is happening today in the Western world. Many of my friends and relatives in the US simply cannot comprehend that the system they've known their whole lives can cease to function. Unfortunately, the older one is, the more difficult it is to accept and adapt. The older generations are the ones who really took it on the chin here in Russia.

In retrospect, as I think Paul is alluding to, it's amazing that the transition in Russia was as smooth as it was. Considering the country's history, the potential for violence was certainly there. I can only hope that other societies that experience similar transitions do so even more smoothly. And with the world's over population problem I'm not sure the result of a shrinking population is such a bad thing.

October 21, 2011
2:14 pm
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eddie:

It's an idea based on the fact that the carnitine shuttle is impaired in mitochondrial dysfunction.  And I seem to recall that Diane was just starting and wasn't eating a lot of red meat.  I don't know if it will help, but it seems like a rational thing to try.

JL:

You're right, it was an oversimplification.  And you're absolutely correct that the older generations are the ones most affected: people simply remain in denial that the patterns by which they've lived their entire lives don't work anymore.

Furthermore, no, a shrinking population isn't a bad thing at all.  It's only bad if you're a bank -- because fractional reserve banking depends on infinite exponential growth in order to not collapse.  That's why "economists", politicians, and other tools of the banking industry continually beat the growth drum: it's necessary to maintain the fraud they're perpetrating on all of us.

The price, of course, is continual economic collapse as the costs of failure are shifted to the people via the government, and ecological collapse as the growth drive strips unrenewable resources.

JS

December 27, 2011
7:16 am
Page not found &laqu
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[...] Wildflower Riot! And The State Of The Paleo Community [...]

February 23, 2012
6:10 am
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Halifax, UK
Gnoll
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J. Stanton said:

Paul:

"Eat like your grandmother" doesn't have the same ring to it.

Good enough for a headline! Laugh

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2105132/Damn-low-fat-diet-How-reformed-vegan-John-Nicholson-gorges-foods-granny-enjoyed--felt-better.html

Living in the Ice Age
http://livingintheiceage.pjgh.co.uk

February 23, 2012
4:06 pm
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Paul:

That's a great article.  Cracks are spreading across the face of the dam...

JS

December 9, 2012
7:03 am
alan2102
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“Creating a permanent dependent underclass is never a good idea. You’re trading short-term security for a guarantee of long-term societal dysfunction.”

True.

And, it may be that creating a permanent dependent overclass is as bad, or even worse. The banks (multi-$trillion bailouts, free money with no strings attached), the military-industrial complex (a gigantic permanent aid-to-dependent-corporations program), and various other big welfare programs for the already-wealthy are indeed a guarantee of long-term societal dysfunction.

............

related: FREE book:
http://deanbaker.net/books/the-conservative-nanny-state.htm
The Conservative Nanny State: How the Wealthy Use the Government to Stay Rich and Get Richer

December 9, 2012
7:11 am
alan2102
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JS: "If carb-obesity isn't true, we still have to explain why obesity is such a strong risk factor for these diseases."

Not nearly as strong as you might think. See the paper I just sited on an adjacent thread (science-behind-low-carb...), by Linda Bacon:
http://www.nutritionj.com/content/10/1/9
Review
Weight Science: Evaluating the Evidence for a Paradigm Shift
Linda Bacon and Lucy Aphramor

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