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Does Meat Rot In Your Colon? No. What Does? Beans, Grains, and Vegetables!
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June 3, 2014
5:43 am
asdfas
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this was moronic. protein is degraded by bacteria in the gut. animals that are grown in a bacteria free environment are around 40% of the size of an animal with bacteria, no matter what kind of diet they're fed.

June 4, 2014
9:54 pm
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asdfas:

Some colon bacteria can indeed break down some proteins.  

However, animal protein does not, in general, make it to the colon: as the article states, stomach acid and digestive enzymes (e.g. pepsin, trypsin, elastase) do an excellent job of breaking it down into fully absorbable amino acids, bi- and tri-peptides.  

In contrast, grain proteins are poorly digested, often due to being prolamins (proteins high in proline).  It turns out our digestive enzymes have trouble breaking down prolamins, and they can't break down Pro-Pro bonds at all!  

Thus the digestive disruption of, for instance, gluten grains -- we can only digest them into large peptides, some of which bind to receptors intended for endogenous molecules (like zonulin and opiates) and some of which stimulate autoimmune reactions in those with certain HLA haplotypes.

If you have scientific sources that show meat and other animal protein remaining undigested and thereby feeding colon bacteria in significant amounts, I'd love to see them.  

And as far as "why are sterile mice less fat?" you might wish to read the following series of interesting articles, starting with Part I

Meanwhile, you might wish to restrain yourself from using terms like "moronic".

JS

June 8, 2014
10:25 am
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J. Stanton,
I noticed on the first page you stated that B12 and Omega 3 fatty acids were unable to be obtained in a vegan diet without supplements.

Vitamin B12 is found in soil. When herbivores eat vegetation they will take up some soil as well as long as it is touching the ground (grass, strawberries, et cetera). That is how they get B12. Thousands of years ago, when vegetation wasn't washed (maybe it was rinsed in a lake but lakes have B12 from the soil too anyways) that was how humans could get B12 without eating meat. But now, fruits and vegetables will be washed vigorously whether at home or in the factory removing almost all of the B12 present. If vegans don't have a small garden at home, then they will have to supplement B12. It may not be natural but B12 CAN be obtained naturally by vegans and I think that is what matters.

Omega 3 fatty acids (or long chain n-3 fats, correct me if I'm wrong though) can be obtained from many plant oils.

Also, doesn't only the fiber (the rest is broken down by enzymes and absorbed by the body) in plant materials break down in the large intestine? Isn't this necessary to get Vitamin K as well?

June 13, 2014
5:38 am
localad
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We always collect our own road kill,if we can stop safely. (and others, if the animal is still warm)

We make a fine stew from our roadside meat bounty, which we call "Ragout Michelin".

June 17, 2014
12:41 am
Tamara
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After viewing 300,000 Intestines & Stomachs, Dr. Hiromi Shinya has Something to say about Gastrointestinal Health, "A person with poor gastrointestinal function is never healthy. When a person's gastrointestinal system is not clean, that person will be prone to suffer from some kind of disease. In short, whether a person is healthy or not depends on what that person eats and how that person lives day to day. What determines a person's state of health is the daily accumulation of things such as food, water, exercise, sleep, work, and stress."

Mr. Shinya is not a promoter of westernized medicine for the mere fact that he has studied, viewed and made case studies of his patients diet and colon for decades and has come to the conclusion that one of the contributors to disease is the result of a dirty, acidic and toxic colon caused from unhealthy lifestyle choices. One of these lifestyle choices is a lack of consuming real whole foods that are abundant in nutrients and antioxidants such as a diet of raw vegetables and fruits over a poor diet consisting of mostly processed, acidic foods. He noticed a direct correlation between the diet and the colon and he authored a few books that describes his findings and solutions. In his book, The Enzyme Factor, He is quoted as saying...

“... Enzymes are the protein catalysts that are made within the cells of all living things--and they're needed to maintain life--think transportation of nutrients, digestion, excretion, synthesis, detoxification, decomposition, and supplying energy. There are over 5000 kinds of vital enzymes, each with specific jobs--like the digestive enzyme amylase that's found in saliva & reacts to carbohydrates. Some foods like dairy products, meat, and alcohol require a greater-than-normal amount of a particular enzyme to break them down--creating a shortage of the necessary enzymes needed for digestion & absorption. ”

Shinya's Keys to Good Health :

1. Eat a diet that is 85-90% plant-based foods 50% whole grains, brown rice, whole wheat pasta, barley, cereals, whole grain bread & beans including soybeans, kidney beans, garbanzo beans, lentils, pinto beans, pigeon peas, black, white & pink beans 30% green and yellow vegetables and root vegetables, including potatoes, carrots, yams and beets, and sea vegetables 5-10% fruits, seeds & nuts soymilk, rice milk, almond milk

2. 10-15% animal-based proteins (no more than 3 to 4 ounces per day): Fish of any type, but preferably small fish as the large fish contain mercury Poultry: chicken, turkey, duck--small amounts only Beef, lamb, veal, pork - should be limited or avoided Eggs

3. Foods to add to your diet: Herbal teas Seaweed/kelp tablets Brewer's yeast (good source of B complex vitamins and minerals) Enzyme supplements Multivatimin & mineral supplements Fish oil--particularly DHA

4. Good Water is essential for your health. Drink "good water" (Alkaline Ionized Water) such as mineral water or hard water, which has calcium & magnesium, and keeps the body at an optimal alkaline pH Adults should drink at least 6-10 cups of water every day Drink 1-3 cups of water after waking up in the morning Drink 2-3 cups of water about one hour before each meal.

5. Regular Elimination Start a daily habit to remove intestinal pollutants and to clean out your system regularly Do not take laxatives Eat high fiber foods--don't get your fiber from capsules or supplements

6. Decrease dependence on prescription drugs by modifying your diet & getting exercise when possible Pharmaceuticals can tax the liver and kidneys. Many chronic conditions such as arthritis, gout, diabetes, and osteoporosis can be managed with diet and exercise.

7. Minerals are important to health Magnesium activates hundreds of different enzymes--and is required for good health. A balance of sodium & potassium is a prerequisite for life. Laxatives, diarrhea, excessive exercise can deplete sodium. A diet high in vegetables boosts potassium. Too much calcium after middle age can be harmful Small amounts of trace minerals work synergistically with vitamins, minerals, and enzymes: boron, copper, zinc, iron, selenium, chromium, manganese, molybdenum, & iodine.

8. Moderate Exercise appropriate for your age and physical condition is necessary for good health, but excessive exercise can release free radicals and harm your body Some good forms of exercise are walking (2.5 miles), swimming, tennis, bicycling, golf, muscle strengthening, yoga, martial arts, and aerobics

9. Adequate Rest - Shinya is a daily napper, so he goes to bed at the same time every night and gets six to eight hours of uninterrupted sleep. If you are hungry or thirsty, a small piece of fruit may be eaten one hour before retiring, as it will digest quickly. Take a short nap of about 30 minutes after lunch.

10. Breathing and meditation- Practice meditation. Do deep abdominal breathing 4 or 5 times per hour. The exhale should be twice as long as the inhale. This is very important as deep breaths help to rid the body of toxins and free radicals. Wear loose clothing that does not restrict your breath. Listen to your own body and be good to yourself

11. Joy and love will boost your body's enzyme factor sometimes in miraculous ways Take time every day for an attitude of appreciation Laugh Sing Dance Live passionately and engage your life, your work, and the ones you love with your full heart

The solution: Avoid the kinds of foods that deplete enzymes, such as...

1. Excessive Animal Protein--especially red meat

2. Dairy products such as cow's milk, cheese, yogurt, other milk products

3. Japanese green tea, Chinese tea, English tea (limit to 1-2 cups per day)

4. Coffee

5. Sweets and sugar

6. Nicotine

7. Chocolate

8. Fats & oils

9. Regular table salt (use sea salt with trace minerals)

10. Alcohol

June 17, 2014
9:55 am
eddie watts
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Tamara: I love reading fantasy, but that list is a bit too far fetched for me.

Skgr:"It may not be natural but B12 CAN be obtained naturally by vegans and I think that is what matters."
erm this sentence makes no sense.

also omega 3 cannot be obtained from plants no. the precursors can and some people can convert those into omega 3, but not everyone can.

hey do what makes you happy and so will we. just so happens mine includes meat and yours doesn't, it's really no biggie!

July 2, 2014
10:58 pm
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Skgr:

B12 isn't found in soil in any significant quantity: it's produced by microbes in the digestive tract (and nothing else: only bacteria and archaea can produce B12). Herbivorous animals absorb these products of bacterial fermentation, including B12, because they have guts optimized for absorbing products of bacterial decomposition. So unless you're eating soil containing a great deal of fresh poop (which is unsafe for many reasons), you're not getting adequate B12…and dirty vegetables aren't a sufficient source.

Some plants do contain ALA, the 18-carbon n-3 ("omega-3") fatty acid -- but our bodies are much less than 1% efficient at converting it into the DHA our brains and bodies require, so plants are not a good source. (Links and more information here.) And blood levels do not correlate with tissue levels or intake, so the "vegans don't have lower blood levels of DHA" study quote doesn't apply.

Re: vitamin K, K2 (found in animal tissues, particularly organ meats) is the important form because it facilitates calcium deposition: K1 (found in plants) only helps with blood clotting. And I haven't seen any evidence that we can absorb it through the colon even if it were produced by gut bacteria -- which I also haven't seen evidence for.

JS

July 2, 2014
11:06 pm
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Tamara:

I actually agree with most of Dr. Aoki's prescription for health, except for the dietary part! (I see no reason that red meat should be avoided nor grains pursued, and plenty of reasons to the contrary…)

By the way, anyone who talks at length about "enzymes" in the diet, especially "living enzymes", is a quack. Any food that "contained the enzymes for its own digestion" would digest itself and rot long before we had a chance to eat it! And the idea that (for instance) green tea or fat somehow "depletes our body of enzymes" is absurd.

JS

July 4, 2014
6:50 am
Hilton King
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I will remember this the next time somebody says that crap. See what I did there? But seriously.

July 5, 2014
6:48 pm
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J. Stanton said
-snip-

After reading many articles, it seems there seems to be a conflict as to the amount of B12 in soil (and water). But, research has found that B12 producing bacteria may be found in a healthy human's small and/or large intestine. As to how much they produce and how well we absorb it is unknown. The human body can also recycle some amounts of B12. Here is a link to a thread on a vegan (yes, I know, it is biased, but the OP links to some articles) site that should explain much of what I am trying to say.

About DHA and ALA: I am not as knowledgeable of this subject as I am B12. There seems to be much controversy of how efficient ALA to DHA conversion is though. According to some studies, different amounts of a variety of fats seem to effect ALA to DHA conversion.

Vitamin K2 (and maybe K1) is produced by bacteria in our large intestine which absorbs water and vitamin K. I'll link you to some articles.

If those are sufficient, I can provide more.

July 13, 2014
7:53 am
Joe
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First of all, the majority of B12 deficiency cases in N. America are in meat eaters. Did everyone know that? No, apparently not. I don't even think vegetarian/vegan cases are large enough to fit into the statistic.

Now, B12 is found all over the place. The most important thing about B12 (and all other vitamins) is this "reliable sources". That is, if a scientist test 100 oranges, and only 20 register as having B12, then this is not a reliable source.

It's all science and statistics -- with are also unreliable.

See, B12 can be found in a person's mouth and intestines too. But these are also unreliable because every person is different, as is every orange.

Now, B12 is basically found in bacteria poop. Where do you find bacteria? Everywhere. But, as a food source, you'd find it on the outer parts of fruits and veggies. Wash, peel, and cook those, and you are not reducing the B12 content. B12 can be found quite reliably in dirt, but who eats dirt or dirty food these days? Not many people. Everything is clean clean clean. Well water has also been a source in the past.

So, basically, the most "reliable" places one can find B12 are in a healthy digestive tract, and in fermented foods that have not been cooked or pasteurized etc. Some popular products in N. America are miso, tempeh, natto, etc. Real pickles (those not made with vinegar or cooked etc.) or sauerkraut etc. may also be reliable sources. Nutritional yeast is a good thing to add to one's diet too. Also, so called "probiotic" foods will help with improving ones digestive system.

But, go ahead, and talk to lifetime vegans from other countries and they take no vitamins or supplements etc. I was talking to a live long vegan from India (on the net) the other week and he said that in India a 100% vegetarian (vegan) diet is seen as a complete diet; not lacking in anything -- so they don't need to take any B12 or any other vitamins, and after many years of life this guy is still alive, and so are millions of other life long vegans there. Vegetarianism is an ancient practise in other parts of the world -- it's only seen as some kind of weird hippie thing in N. America.

If you are worried about B12, you can also take some spirulina. It has B12 and is vegan.

But, you should also consider thing that hinder B12 absorptions, and hinder the growth of the good bacteria in the intestinal tract. Antibiotics are notorious for ruining people's digestive flora and allowing the bad bacteria to flourish. After using antibiotics one must really focus on reestablishing their flora with probiotic supplements and foods etc. It took my wife a year to feel better and perhaps two or more to feel recovered. But, doctors give out antibiotic meds like crazy never telling people of such side effects.

So, I get B12 from what I eat. I take no vitamins. I just try to eat healthy. I do not eat 'vegetarian' foods that have been fortified with B12 such as tofu dogs etc. These things are just too expensive. I do include nutritional yeast in my diet and sometimes spirulina, and include miso quite regularly -- it's our favourite item to use to flavour our food with.

So, B12 IS in and ON bananas, it's just not a reliable source. It's also mostly on the outer skin, but you would find more B12 on a nicely ripened banana (i.e. brownish skin) than you would on a green or yellow banana that hasn't started to break down yet. So, are the scientists testing green, yellow, or ripe bananas? Are they testing organic or non-organic bananas? What is the tolerance of their "reliable source" test? These things make a difference

July 13, 2014
8:34 am
Gnoll
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Here are the links as they seemed to have gotten deleted on the other post:
http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?12791-Does-a-healthy-body-manufacture-B12
The above site links to other (more reliable) websites on the topic.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1492156
The above site tells how Vitamin K is absorbed by the large intestines.

I can't find the other sites I linked to since I posted that about 8 days ago, sorry.

Joe: I agree, antibiotics can inhibit the production and absorption of many different vitamins. That's why I support bacteriophage therapy as it only targets the bacteria causing said sickness.

July 13, 2014
8:44 am
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eddie watts said

Tamara: I love reading fantasy, but that list is a bit too far fetched for me.

Skgr:"It may not be natural but B12 CAN be obtained naturally by vegans and I think that is what matters."
erm this sentence makes no sense.

also omega 3 cannot be obtained from plants no. the precursors can and some people can convert those into omega 3, but not everyone can.

hey do what makes you happy and so will we. just so happens mine includes meat and yours doesn't, it's really no biggie!

Oops sorry about that sentence. Replace natural with practical.

Also, I already addressed how well ALA could be converted into DHA in another post. It depends on a ratio of fats already present in the blood. ALA is an omega 3 so plants can make it. A certain type of algae makes DHA and EPA as well. (Obviously its not practical to eat algae so its best to get it from a supplement until its known what ratio of fats are required to make DHA and EPA efficiently).

Hilton King said

I will remember this the next time somebody says that crap. See what I did there? But seriously.

Are you talking about what I said? Please elaborate.

Sorry for this double post, I didn't know more people were addressing what I said other than J. Stanton.

July 22, 2014
8:36 am
eddie watts
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"and after many years of life this guy is still alive, and so are millions of other life long vegans there. Vegetarianism is an ancient practise in other parts of the world"

I'm at work right now skgr so cannot really comment adequately on your whole post, but this bit above:

when you say ancient what exactly do you mean?
I would refer to human diet since we started being human as ancient, the history of vegetarianism, let alone veganism, is considerably shorter than that.

July 25, 2014
8:24 am
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eddie watts said

"and after many years of life this guy is still alive, and so are millions of other life long vegans there. Vegetarianism is an ancient practise in other parts of the world"

I'm at work right now skgr so cannot really comment adequately on your whole post, but this bit above:

when you say ancient what exactly do you mean?
I would refer to human diet since we started being human as ancient, the history of vegetarianism, let alone veganism, is considerably shorter than that.

That wasn't me who said that :P That was Joe.

But I'll try to answer anyways. Ancient India refers to a time from the prehistoric period to the Middle Ages. (According to Wikipedia). Exactly when Homo Sapiens, as we define them, started to exist (probably somewhere around the Paleolithic Age) is unknown but I'd say the diet they consumed was pretty diverse. There were Paleolithic humans living in pretty diverse environments from Alaska to New Guinea. There are even some tribes that they suspect ate a 95% frugivore diet with the remaining 5% of their diet consisting of eggs, carrion, small birds, and mussels. The human diet as you can see, is very diverse. That's why people find success from a variety of diets from paleo, to vegetarianism, and even veganism.

July 26, 2014
7:46 am
Pedro
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-Eating meat allowed us to leave the tropical rainforests. If we were vegetarians, we'd still be stuck in the trees of equatorial Africa.
Oh cmon! I was hoping that this was a good source of information, but your comments afterwards are ruining the credibility. I noticed a few faults in your first comments, but this was the last drop. Since im no expert in our human digestive system so i always seek information.

Also, you cook the mear because it helps immensely the digestion. Thats the main reason you do it. You ahould be better informed about the caloric costs of digesting raw meat. How many times you eat raw meat ( either source ) in a week? How many times you eat raw vegetables and fruit?

August 3, 2014
5:30 am
Amara
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@ Dave:

"Tasteless" and "hard to prepare" plant foods? What? Do you even know what you're saying?

Watermelon, honeydew, potatoes, cantaloupe, berries, bananas, cherries, apples, mangos, pears, peaches, apricots, bok choy, sesame seeds, almonds, coconuts, macadamia nuts, grapes, avocado, the list goes on!

If you think plant foods are tasteless and hard to prepare, well, then quit eating them. Let's see how long you live! Just like the Eskimos!

Continue eating your diet heavy in meat, eggs, and high fat dairy!

Scientists find many associations between these foods to cancers, heart disease and plaque in arteries, obesity depending on the amount consumed, etc. Whole plant foods are associated with a LOWER risk of disease in the human body. Ever heard of watermelon causing a heart attack? No, because it's not going to happen!

Look up Dr. Hiromi Shinya on Youtube.com. There's a video containing footage of a mucus substance in the colons of various patients. Those who ate the most meat and dairy products had the dirtiest colons. Undeniable evidence. Dr. Shinya and MANY other doctors do NOT recommend the consumption of meat, eggs, and dairy.

September 3, 2014
12:08 pm
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I've fallen way behind in my replies due to preparation for my 2014 AHS presentation! I'll try to catch up here.

Skgr: "Vitamin K2 (and maybe K1) is produced by bacteria in our large intestine which absorbs water and vitamin K. I'll link you to some articles."

Sure! It wouldn't surprise me, as K2-MK7 is found in natto...but like B12, I'd be surprised if we absorb a meaningful amount compared to our needs. That's why it's generally found in animal products -- and why (for instance) Weston A. Price found that "butter oil" (which, from grass-fed animals, contains a substantial amount of K2-MK4) actually reversed the rampant tooth decay which resulted from abandoning indigenous diets and switching to the "foods of modern commerce". I also suspect a dearth of grass-fed animal products is a causative factor behind the epidemic of osteoporosis and osteopenia, because it's certainly not a lack of calcium intake!

Joe:

First, let me note that I agree with you that antibiotics do a number on our gut flora, and there are a lot of people with resulting dysbiosis. Moving ahead:

"First of all, the majority of B12 deficiency cases in N. America are in meat eaters."

Even if that's true (citation?), it's deliberately misleading. Since only 2.5% of Americans consider themselves to be vegetarian, and under 1% of us actually are (Haddad 2003) vegetarians would have to be B12-deficient at over 100x the rate of meat-eaters to make that statement untrue.

Next, note that dairy products are reasonable sources of B12, so it's only vegans (a much smaller minority) who are intrinsically in danger.

"But, go ahead, and talk to lifetime vegans from other countries and they take no vitamins or supplements etc. I was talking to a live long vegan from India (on the net) the other week"

1. Just because you read it on the Internet doesn't make it true!
2. Given the state of the average Indian -- their average lifespan ranks 150th out of 193 world countries according to the WHO, just behind Botswana -- I wouldn't use India as my example of radiant heath!
3. India is generally vegetarian, not vegan. They eat large quantities of dairy.
4. There's an important difference between "mostly veg*an" and "really veg*an". You'll note from Haddad 2003 (linked above) that 2/3 of self-described "vegetarians" in America ate meat on one of the two days their dietary recall was measured! How many of the rest do you suppose went an entire week, let alone an entire month, without eating animal products that provide essential nutrients unavailable in their normal diet?
5. There are some people who can apparently survive on a completely unsupplemented vegan diet -- just as there are people who can run a sub-10-second 100 meter dash or memorize pi to 1000+ digits. But given what we know about human biochemistry, I believe that recommending it for everyone is irresponsible.

"f you are worried about B12, you can also take some spirulina. It has B12 and is vegan."

Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2007 Nov;232(10):1266-74.
Vitamin B12 sources and bioavailability.
Watanabe F.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17959839
"Most of the edible blue-green algae (cyanobacteria) used for human supplements predominantly contain pseudovitamin B(12), which is inactive in humans. The edible cyanobacteria are not suitable for use as vitamin B(12) sources, especially in vegans."

Skgr:

Thanks for the reference to Conly 1992: unfortunately it's not freely available online, so I'll have to see if I can track down a copy and find out what it actually says. Interestingly, the abstract notes only the effect of vitamin K on blood clotting, and not the extremely important effects of K2 on calcium metabolism! (K1 only helps clotting.)

eddie, Skgr:

Veg*anism is indeed religious in origin. Our earliest records of it date from perhaps 2000-2500BC, and there are no records of native or indigenous societies practicing any form of it. More interestingly, meat is very highly valued in all such societies, even those which subsist on a majority of plant products, and they universally celebrate its procurement and availability -- suggesting that high-plant diets are due to privation, not choice.

Furthermore, there is zero evidence for meaningful plant consumption in the evolutionary history of Homo until perhaps 120-170 KYa, and a good deal of evidence against. The existing variation in salivary amylase copy number alone suggests that a substantial number of modern humans aren't well adapted to high starch intake -- let alone the awkward fact that high-starch diets in the absence of toothbrushes and fluoridated toothpaste rot one's teeth, and evidence of that is sorely lacking before the adoption of agriculture.

Pedro:

I'm betting you read Richard Wrangham, or saw one of his documentaries. He's very good at gathering publicity -- but the fact that all the puff quotes on "Catching Fire" are from chefs and laymen, not other anthropologists, should tell you something. (The polite term for his hypothesis is "heterodox.") Anyone who is familiar with the literature will note that his "cooking hypothesis" depends on a great deal of evidence that doesn't exist (the book is full of "must haves"), and ignores a great deal of existing contradictory evidence -- as do several of his scientific papers I've read. He's a vegetarian, and like many vegetarians, he's had to construct an alternative universe in which science supports his pre-existing assumptions.

Besides, I eat plenty of raw meat! It's mainly the contamination I'm afraid of, so I usually limit it to beef I've bought by the side from a local ranger, versus something at a supermarket that went through the industrial feedlot/slaughtering system. Someday I'll post my recipe for "5 minute tartare"...

More soon!

JS

September 3, 2014
1:00 pm
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We've been getting off-topic again, so I'll repeat:

1. The purpose of this article is to address one very specific topic: the claim that “meat rots in your colon”. Making the general case for veg*anism vs. omnivory is not only a non sequitur, it's beyond the scope of one article — and most certainly beyond the scope of a comment.

2. Please read, at the very least, my responses to comments before asking a question (or making a statement). I have previously answered many of these questions: asking them again says, to me, that you're not interested in productive dialogue and are just spouting off.

Yes, there are a lot of comments! Deal with it.

Amara:

I'm pretty sure Dave is referring to beans and whole grains, not to fruits and vegetables -- all of which are healthy components of any diet, Paleo included! (Though modern fruits, bred for high sugar content, may require a bit of moderation.)

"Scientists find many associations between these foods to cancers, heart disease and plaque in arteries, obesity depending on the amount consumed, etc."

Most such "associations" are because people who eat vegetarian also have many other healthy habits. From Haddad 2003 we see that self-described "vegetarians" (who still eat meat) consume the following, relative to self-described omnivores:

55% less beer
36% less fried potatoes (i.e. French fries)
16% less sugars and sweets

72% more fish! (Apparently there are a lot of people who think fish are vegetables.)
36% more ‘other vegetables’
26% more fruit
20% more tomatoes

It's clear that the self-described "vegetarians" are eating a far healthier diet than the self-described omnivores, meat consumption aside -- and other studies show that high meat consumption is often, in America, entangled with smoking, lack of exercise, and other unhealthy habits.

For some studies which compare vegetarians and omnivores with similar lifestyles, read this article, and Part I of this article.

"Continue eating your diet heavy in meat, eggs, and high fat dairy!"

I will -- and I'll continue looking and feeling better than I ever have. (Except for high-fat dairy...I only eat that when I'm trying to bulk up, and right now I'm cutting weight.)

Additionally, it's delicious!

JS

September 3, 2014
3:21 pm
Gnoll
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J. Stanton said
Sure! It wouldn't surprise me, as K2-MK7 is found in natto...but like B12, I'd be surprised if we absorb a meaningful amount compared to our needs. That's why it's generally found in animal products -- and why (for instance) Weston A. Price found that "butter oil" (which, from grass-fed animals, contains a substantial amount of K2-MK4) actually reversed the rampant tooth decay which resulted from abandoning indigenous diets and switching to the "foods of modern commerce". I also suspect a dearth of grass-fed animal products is a causative factor behind the epidemic of osteoporosis and osteopenia, because it's certainly not a lack of calcium intake!
JS

Until, it is known and proven how much Vitamin K and B12 is absorbed, I don't think this is worth discussing.

And the butter oil reversing tooth decay does not prove that the average American lacks sufficient amounts of K2-MK4 (if that is what you were trying to get at). All it proves is that excess K2 can reverse tooth decay. Also, do you have a link to this study?

J. Stanton said
eddie, Skgr:
Furthermore, there is zero evidence for meaningful plant consumption in the evolutionary history of Homo until perhaps 120-170 KYa, and a good deal of evidence against. The existing variation in salivary amylase copy number alone suggests that a substantial number of modern humans aren't well adapted to high starch intake -- let alone the awkward fact that high-starch diets in the absence of toothbrushes and fluoridated toothpaste rot one's teeth, and evidence of that is sorely lacking before the adoption of agriculture.
JS

I remember seeing a chart somewhere where consumption of meat to plants was listed for different areas during the Paleolithic period but I can't seem to find it now. I'll search for it and try to link it back here.

A plant-based diet does not necessarily mean that high amounts of starches are consumed. There is also evidence of rotting teeth during the Paleolithic period as well. If need be, I can link some articles but right now I'm too busy.

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