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Why Do We Ever Stop Eating? Taste, Reward, and Hyperpalatability (Why Are We Hungry? Part VII)
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October 19, 2011
10:47 pm
Fmgd
Guest

Great article. It all sounds natural, and it's great to back up intuition with research.

I haven't really looked much into it, but I don't get the fixation on food reward as a cause for making people fat. I mean, I get that you might expect someone to eat less if the food is bland, but it seems like it would be a secondary concern at best: if you eat nutritionally void food, let it be something you don't even like. Of course I wonder why you'd even be eating it in the first place.

Simple experience shows that eating "paleo" without exaggeration is not hard at all. Unless of course you're metabolically damaged or something like that, but then it seems to me things would get much more complicated. If you stay hungry because you can't really absorb or use the nutrients on food, it's not very clear to me that simply eating less wouldn't be equally harmful.

I look forward to the discussion on this area. So far you've done a great job on explaining how humans function and tying it up with discussions on how to not break this mechanism, but fixing or managing it after it's broken sounds harder.

Oh, I love the reference of taste as being a drive for a sin. Some time ago I heard someone say, talking about marrow: "Well, you just know something this good has to be a guilty pleasure." It's common knowledge, and it just makes no sense.

October 20, 2011
12:17 am
Franco
Guest

I just read the latest 2 installments of SG's food reward hypothesis. He still uses reward and palability interchangable and seems to ignore the nutrition aspect completely. He could learn a lot from you, JS.

October 20, 2011
5:16 am
Scotlyn
Guest

This series has been wonderfully thought out, referenced and constructed. Lots of very useful concepts. Thank you for sticking with it to the end!

I think you have not only up-ended the standard food reward theory, but also the obesity set point theory. Ie- if there are "set points" or homeostatic processes at work, they are probably not around a certain weight or number of calories, per se, but around a sufficiency of necessary nutrients.

October 20, 2011
7:28 am
Diane
Guest

I've enjoyed the series. It makes the whole relationship of eating and food make sense. Now if only someone would figure out why I'm the only person in the whole world to lose no weight on a low-carb high-fat diet, that would be wonderful. 5'3" 160lbs, active, sleep 10 hours a night, moderate exercise almost daily, no-stress job, not a junk-food junkie before, 3 weeks of no more carbs than a quarter sweet potato for dinner. Also, if I never saw another piece of bacon again it would be too soon. That's after only a half a pound in a week. I'm ready to go vegetarian now. Okay, I'm kidding, but I miss food with interesting flavors, colors and textures, but I read somewhere if you aren't losing any weight on a low-carb diet maybe you should go meat only. Blech. I'm trying to revel in the carnivorous life, but I am not feeling the love. Maybe not everything has been explained yet.

October 20, 2011
9:32 am
UK
Gnoll
Forum Posts: 47
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June 14, 2011
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@Daniel - "i think an often overlooked area (even in the paleosphere) is circadian rhythm disorders (disruptions). there are many “clock genes” and “clock cells” in the body and any disruptions to their functioning probably has myriad negative effects that we haven’t even begun to scratch the surface of yet."

There is a book called 'Lights Out' which in which the authors describe modern sugar-rich diets and exposure to 'artificial lighting for long periods of time on a daily basis even through winter' as a signal to the body that we are living in an endless summer.

Summer in turn is a time to put on fat in prepartion for winter where energy demands are likely higher and food options potentially leaner.

Since stumbling across this concept I have given a little emphasis to 'seasonality' in both the kinds of food I eat and in my ratio of sleep/wakefulness as the season dictates. In fact it is also a driver in a range of activities including my seeking of occasional cold exposure through cold showers and wild swimming (we never evolved in a constant temperature, and modern central heating in both houses and cars subjects us to just that!).

Simply living 'closer to the ground' in all areas of my life, and not being scared of exposing myself to the vicissitudes of life is actually quite enjoyable and life affirming.

October 20, 2011
11:49 am
tess
Guest

Diane, i'm in a similar place; seems like i have to tweak my diet all the time! currently, i'm having a good deal of success by taking some hints from the Jaminets. one especial plus from them is that there's a middle-aged woman directly involved in the creation of the Perfect Health regimen. if i hear another 20-something male tell me you just have to eat less and exercise more, i fear i might commit a violence! 😉

October 20, 2011
2:46 pm
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Halifax, UK
Gnoll
Forum Posts: 364
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June 5, 2011
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Damn right, Tess. I was talking to someone this evening who is desperately trying to lose weight and she's doing "all the right things". My revelation that she might do better coming OUT of the gym and just walking a couple of miles in the evening and dropping all that finely balanced diet stuff and just eating real food - meat and vegetables, she'll drop the weight in no time and thereafter keep it off.

Less exercise, more fat!

The detail tells you how that works, which is something that I explained and both she and her husband were in complete agreement - they "knew" what I was saying was right and always felt wrong following present health advice. You know (one for J, here) 'Eat Like Your Grandmother' does hold a lot of truth! 'Eat Like a Predator' sounds miles better, mind.

J's been talking about happy intake of starchy foods for some time - in fact, I think it was here that I had to pull an odd face, stand back and mull over the notion that eating a potato might well not be a bad thing. I've just bought the Jaminets' book and it is confirming a lot of the things that I think has been missing from the paleo diet, or paleo template at Chris Kressler calls it. He's one to read, too. Harris' Archevore is another one which makes a lot of sense. All can be backed up with the science, and it's not selective science. Starches are not a bad thing.

As always, it depends on your goals.

Living in the Ice Age
http://livingintheiceage.pjgh.co.uk

October 20, 2011
2:48 pm
daniel
Guest

@Asclepius- i've read "Lights Out". and while i agree with everything YOU said, the book was a huge letdown. the authors didn't really get too in depth with the mechanisms of why artificial lighting does what it does and the effects of sugar, blah blah. i believe they just skimmed the surface of the entire topic, because once again, we just dont know enough about it. people dont need hypothesis and speculation, they need clear cut science and real answers.

again, i do agree with you, i just think the book was more on the shallow end of the pool. plus, their whole "eat as many carbs as you want in the summer" recommendation is total crap. there are wayyy too many variables to consider to even approach giving a recommendation like that. the biochemical implications for diabetics alone is staggering. i feel like if you are going to recommend something it should be sound within all fields of study relevant to the subject. that one most definitely is not.

i love cold showers! nothing wakes you up faster!

October 20, 2011
3:11 pm
Diane
Guest

Once my eyes are closed it makes no difference to me if there's any residual pinkness from the infernal sodium vapor lights in the city. When I was hiking the PCT in the summer time I frequently fell asleep before the sun was down and woke up again in the faint light of dawn. I'm a master sleeper. I usually get 9-10 hours of sleep, an hour of which is usually me fighting to stay awake long enough not to be made fun of.

Tess, I'm with you. I'm tired of reading about 20-something guys with pounds melting off saying people like me must be doing something wrong. Obviously we are doing something wrong, but it's not what they think it is. I'm not cheating. What reason do I have to cheat when I'm so desperate? I guess on some level I'm okay with being a fat old lady for the rest of my life, but I was really hoping to have a stunningly victorious outcome to make my man change his ways. He's going to kill himself. He's degenerating into all the SAD diseases of middle age. I really hoped my own success would cause him to drop the pills, step away from the pudding and get himself healthy. But alas, all I have given him is fodder to believe I'm the one who is going to get sick and die.

October 20, 2011
4:11 pm
Txomin
Guest

The discussion of taste opens up (again) the matter of proper mastication. I have heard so many crazy things about chewing over the years that I am not surprised most people are confused on the matter.

For those lost between "don't gulp!" and "chew X amount of times", the advice is to chew until flavor disappears. That's it. That's the role of flavor. Beyond the mouth, no part of your digestive system cares what anything tastes like.

October 20, 2011
10:42 pm
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First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2045
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February 22, 2010
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EFRHP:

Yes.  There are a host of empirical observations that only make sense once we understand that "reward" isn't a single, monolithic concept.  Perception gives us our immediate cues, but eventually reality wins out.

eddie:

It's easy to test the difference in satiety produced by junk food vs. real food.  Eat 600 calories of candy: that's just over three rolls of Sweet-Tarts.  Compare that to how you feel after eating 600 calories in the form of three eggs and 1/4 pound of prime rib.

Paul:

I'm honored.  You know how much I respect your work and your judgment.

James_M:

Much appreciated!  Sales of TGC, and Amazon referral income, are my entire compensation for writing these articles.  Note that you'll receive a signed copy if you order direct.

And yes, protein is the most satiating macronutrient.  Since we have no dedicated storage organ for protein, we need to eat it frequently -- but we also have a limited facility to convert the excess into energy, so once we have enough, our desire for more rapidly wanes.

Wayne:

I didn't start with a hypothesis and work backwards to "prove" it.  I started with observed reality, and have done my best to explain it using the current scientific literature.  Furthermore, I've done my best to use modern and accepted scientific terms, instead of making them up or using the vernacular -- and I've been very careful both to define my terms and to use them consistently.

I think the result speaks for itself.

Nance:

That's wonderful!  I'm glad this information is helping you get and keep control. 

It's easy to spin a story that seems plausible -- but the real test is "Does this help me understand why I'm hungry,and what to do about it?"

Beth:

Thank you!  I always appreciate knowing that I've successfully communicated with others.  Though there's currently no award for "Concept of the Year", I'm hoping it's good enough for a presentation slot at the next AHS 🙂

Sam Knox:

Which leads to the Argument from Personal Incredulity: "I just can't believe that [...].  That's ridiculous!"  If something about life doesn't make sense, it's generally because we lack either the knowledge or the evolutionary context to understand it.

becky you!

Most people are perfectly capable of understanding this stuff: they just don't have (or want to take) the time.  My hope is that, by presenting it clearly, I can help us all increase our understanding -- and with it, decrease our vulnerability to bad advice and bad science.

And for those with short attention spans, I agree that the "no brakes" analogy is good.

 

 

More coming soon.  Thanks, everyone, for the support and acknowledgment!  Keep spreading this one around...

October 21, 2011
12:14 am
Fmgd
Guest

Txomin,

Do you know Chuck steak? I mean, I'm Brazilian so I'm only kind of guessing Chuck steak is actually the name of the cut I'm referring to, but anyway.

Have you ever tried to blue-rare it on a frying pan?

You just can't cut it with a knife. Tearing it apart with your teeth is actually the best you can do. And being able to swallow big portions of it with all the connective tissue is central to actually eating it.

Anyway, I think in doing so you learn a lot about chewing and swallowing, and what you said seems to be true. If it doesn't taste anymore (and big chunks of fat and connective tissue are the best chewy gums ever), you've either bitten too much or it's time to gulp it down.

But then again I wouldn't say you should chew everything up to the point flavor disappears, more like once it does you've probably done enough, so it's either in or out.

October 21, 2011
12:51 am
UK
Gnoll
Forum Posts: 47
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June 14, 2011
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@Daniel - "i just think the book was more on the shallow end of the pool" - Agreed!

October 21, 2011
1:25 am
Franco
Guest

@Diane,

what's your eating frequency? How many meals per day? Snacking much?
Artificial sweeteners (diet sodas)?

Exercise: lower the frequency/ up the intensity (=do some form of resistance exercise 2-3xweek)!
It's actually unbelievable that coming from high carb(?) you would not loose at least 2-3 pounds of water weight in the first few days with that low carb you're now.

October 21, 2011
7:42 am
Diane
Guest

No diet sweeteners. No sweet anything. No snacking. Trying my best to do 2 meals a day, although yesterday I thought I would try splitting breakfast in half and having half for lunch so I wouldn't be so hungry 2 hours before dinner. Today I'm going to try no breakfast and no lunch and just have coffee with cream. Dinner is meat, vegetables, 1/4 sweet potato or 2 bacon and 3 eggs and a glass of red wine. Stopped eating cheese before dinner (I'm starving by 4-5pm). Giving up the wine because it tastes funny now. Stopped putting a small handful of macadamias and other raw nuts in my breakfast. Breakfast has been homemade plain yogurt mixed with creme fraiche or coconut milk. I'm getting tired of it and don't know what to try next.

I hiked fasted last weekend 8 miles with 2000ft elevation gain, a typical hike for me. I run at lunch 4-5 miles (slowly) 3-4 times a week and walk the days I don't run. I don't lift weights though, unless you count holding up my fiddle and running the bow across with my wap-wap arms for several hours.

I lost some of the love-handle business in the first week and now the last two weeks, nothing. It's frustrating to see the same belly in the mirror every day and to have my clothes fit no different. I don't have a scale I'm going only by feel. I can see now that to lose weight at age 46 and female, no matter what you eat, you must starve. No other way. Well, I don't know that yet because it hasn't worked yet.

When I was hiking the PCT I was starving out on the trail despite eating as much as I could. I would have this strange sensation when I got into town while eating my first meal of real food. I would see the whole world change from black and white to in color again. Something inside me would wake up and I'd feel emotions again. I'd end up sobbing over my meal sometimes as I came back to life. I feel that I'm walking around in that black and white emotionless state right now. Gosh I hope that something changes, that a flip gets switched and whatever is broken inside me fixes itself so I can be normal like all of you.

October 21, 2011
8:30 am
Fmgd
Guest

I'm not really in a position to give advice, so be wary of anything I say, but perhaps you could try looking into high intensity interval training, or any kind of very intense, not so long workout.

Like, instead of running slowly for hours try to run as fast as you can, stop a very short bit and then run again, for a few minutes, and do it in a way you'll be actually exhausted by the exercises end.

Maybe even do some weight training following that logic, just be careful not to hurt yourself. Increasing muscle mass should help all around if you can get do that.

Oh, and keep in mind you don't really have (at least I think you don't) to have breakfast-y foods for breakfast. Also, I'm not sure I got it right but it sounds like you're skipping lunch. Maybe try skipping breakfast, or at least only eating it when you're actually hungry. It's easier to fast from dinner to launch, with all the sleeping period then the other way around. If everyday life gets in the way of it, always consider hard boiled eggs and things like beef jerky as portable meals.

Also, protein is very sating, so if you're not having that for breakfast trying to hold until dinner will be much harder.

Again, I'm not the one to be giving advice, but I'd consider looking into these things.

October 21, 2011
9:56 am
Sam Knox
Guest

@Diane

Calorie-restriction, even in a carbohydrate-restricted diet, will slow, and eventually stop, fat-loss. It's important that you eat to satiety whenever you are hungry.

Also, three weeks isn't enough time for you to have adapted to a low-carbohydrate diet. It can take six weeks or longer to complete the transition from using primarily blood-sugar to using fat and/or ketones as fuel. Strenuous exercise during this period of adaptation Is likely to be an unpleasant experience, and will make it more difficult to adhere to your diet, especially when combined with calorie-restriction.

If you can't avoid exercise, you're likely to experience some hunger for carbohydrate in order to replace depleted glycogen stores. Don't fight the feeling. In order to be successful, it isn't necessary that you stick to a low-carb regimen at every waking moment, just that you do it often enough so that whatever carbohydrate you consume goes to glycogen rather than fat.

October 21, 2011
10:56 am
eddie watts
Guest

Diane: it seems to me, as Fmgd hinted at above, that may be doing too much or for too long, along with a reduction in food.

i make sure i always eat 250g protein in a day (big guy and i weight train) my fats and carbs i don't worry too much about.

i've done a bit of IF but only for short periods, and even then i often have a little coconut oil and/or peanut butter so it's not a real fast per se.

but i've always found from friends and family that women are often better off focusing on resistance training rather than cardio, due to naturally lower testosterone.
there's a discussion here about this
between myself and a very good fitness instructor
https://www.phd-supplements.com/forum/showthread.php?978-difference-in-workouts-for-either-sex

good luck, but also bear in mind that 2 weeks with no change is not actually a very long time

October 21, 2011
3:09 pm
Diane
Guest

Ok, so if I'm understanding things, my problem is that I'm not yet keto-adapted (which is pretty obvious to me by the strong smell of my urine and how hard it is to walk up stairs and mountains) so at this point I probably can't possibly burn off fat no matter what. Do I have it right? What worried me was that it appeared I was putting fat on two weeks ago, after the first week of this. I think the weight loss in the first week was actually due to the weeks before where I ate salad after dry salad for two weeks. I'm ending week 3 of low carb now and going into week 4. P.S. I like the running. It gives me time to think, gets me out in the noon-day sun and I don't have to pay any money to do it. P.P.S. I couldn't resist breakfast today which was served to me: chorizo and eggs. I think I found something better than bacon.

October 21, 2011
3:11 pm
kobayashi
Guest

One thing I changed about my diet after this comprehensive series is: eating more consciously. Not what I eat, but when and how. A meal in front of the tv, the computer, a book may be nutritionally well-balanced and healthy but lacks sensory-specific satiety, which makes me wanting more food.

Somehow I knew about this, now I understand it. Thanks!

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