Bookmark and Share

Please consider registering
guest

Log In Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —

  

— Match —

   

— Forum Options —

   

Minimum search word length is 4 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic RSS
Vegans Are Cannibals: The Truth Behind The "New Vegan High"
Read the original blog post
March 1, 2011
5:44 am
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2105
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
Offline

There's a definite "high" associated with first going vegan...especially raw vegan. New converts are bright-eyed, relentlessly energetic, and brimming over with messianic zeal to convert all their friends to the diet that has brought them such joy.

Yet, like a star going nova, this brightness never lasts. After several months their energy begins to flag, they start losing strength and muscle mass, and sickness begins to harvest their days. Friends start to notice their gauntness and pallor. As time goes on they become alternately spacy and snappish, suffering from fatigue, depression, poor memory—and even loose teeth. Women become amenorrheic. They restrict…

Bookmark and Share
March 1, 2011
9:35 am
Bodhi
Guest

I went through the stages you have described three times. I thought I must have done it wrong the first two times. I was vegetarian years ago. I lost muscle mass and starting getting weak. I went back to a SAD diet and felt better. In 2006 I discover vegan. I thought this was what I'd missed the first time around. Rinse and repeat, loss muscle and got weak. In 2008 I read Steve Pavlina's 30 day raw story and I got movivated to give raw vegan a try. I felt great for a while, then I started going down hill again. Later that year I discovered Paleo and I've felt great ever since. Thanks for the post.

Bookmark and Share
March 1, 2011
3:35 pm
Sebastien
Guest

I saw myself back when I was on a raw vegan diet in the your second paragraph. It's a good thing that I was finally able to see the light because there wasn't much left in me to keep on eating myself.

Like Bodhi, I discovered that terrible mistake of a diet because of Steve Pavlina. I wrote about it on my site.

Bookmark and Share
March 1, 2011
7:28 pm
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2105
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
Offline

Bodhi:

That's the most insidious part of the lie: the idea that it's your fault that you feel sick, because you're not doing it right. 

"You're detoxifying, it'll get better," the gurus say.  "30 bananas a day provides all your dietary needs," the gurus say.  "If you feel like you're starving for butter or a steak, it's because you're weak," the gurus say.  "Push through it."  And you keep thinking that if you can just find the right combination of obscure Brazilian rainforest fruits, pureed wheatgrass, and organic asparagus, you'll feel like you did when you first started out.

It's a terrible lie...and now you know why.

I'm glad you were able to find a way out, and I'm glad you're here now.  Thanks for sharing.  

Sébastien:

I never became as sick as you (I was 'just' a vegetarian, living mostly on cheese and tortillas), but I've seen it happen to others.  It's frightening how far gone we can be while still convincing ourselves that we're "detoxing".

I just took a break to read your article "How Steve Pavlina Almost Killed Me."  And you're absolutely correct: that "sacred", blissed-out feeling comes partially from the asexuality you get for free when you're starving, as your body shuts down all its reproductive drives.  But the other part is the constant serotonin rush from all the simple fruit sugars they're eating: I talk about that in detail here.

Anyway, I'm glad you've made it here, and I'll be spending more time reading your articles as I can.

PS: Your website is so nicely designed and laid out that it makes me jealous!  Great job.

JS

 

Bookmark and Share
March 2, 2011
4:13 pm
Elenor
Guest

Fascinating! But HOW do you get a vegetarian to awaken? My (40-yr-old!) foster daughter is getting sicker and sicker. Her 'allergy tests' {eye roll} show her to be "allergic" or "sensitive" to darned-near everything! (Eggs. Whey. Seems like nearly hundreds of foods and food elements.) She says, no of course she's not getting enough protein -- but she won't eat tuna fish anymore (?!) without mayo (egg allergy) cause it's boring. And she spends an hour or two making gluten-free egg-free bread and then she's too tired to eat it -- or make it again...

She says when she last tried meat (many years ago) it tasted like rot. She WON'T eat meat... (I suggested I'd read somewhere that taking magnesium helps make meat 'palatable'; she's probably deficient in that, as she likely is in everything else!) She's so depressed, so tired. And I just don't know what to suggest. Geez! It's worse than having a drug addicted child!!

Bookmark and Share
March 2, 2011
9:45 pm
Eric
Guest

It's gross, but it's true. Help spread this one around, and maybe we can save a few impressionable people from being bamboozled into bad health by TV personalities, 'personal development gurus', and emotional blackmailers masquerading as scientists.

This is a funny troll. You should name these tv personalities that are so bamboozzling people into becoming vegan. Is it the burgermeistermiesterburger? Also I would like you to name the emotional blackmailers masquerading as scientists. What would be even more humorous would be to cite the scientific studies backing your outlandish claims.

I'm sorry but you're an obvious troll with this post. I have no problem with that at all but must call it as I see it. At least have some phony references of your own if you are going to throw stones at all the masquerading scientists that recommend a vegan diet.

Bookmark and Share
March 2, 2011
10:09 pm
Ravi
Guest

... so THAT"S why they eat all those fava beans! (...and a good Chianti...) - there's a "success story" on MDA where a 2 year vegan wakes up and in 1.5 months of primal tags on 25 lbs and looks ripped - quite amazing from the emaciated "durianrider" kinda body- (BTW - Free the Animal's recent vegan-rant post and thread is hilarious!)

this must be bash-a-vegan month, eh?

Bookmark and Share
March 3, 2011
3:50 am
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2105
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
Offline

Ravi:

I'm not bashing vegans: they're victims.  I'm bashing the misinformation that's suckering people into poor health, and the con men that are spreading it.

Elenor:

What sort of "allergy tests" is she getting, and from what lab?  There are a lot of shysters/bunk artists and a few legit ones. 

As far as what to do:

-Find some guaranteed algae-sourced vegetarian EPA/DHA caps (sigh) and stuff her with large quantities of those.  Some forms of depression respond as well to high doses of DHA as they do to SSRIs, and she's probably heavily n-3 deficient since flaxseed oil doesn't upconvert with any efficiency.

-Coconut milk. Anything tastes great in coconut milk, even if it's just a bowl of berries...and as a bonus it's almost all medium-chain saturated fats.  This article has the quick and dirty Thai curry instructions near the end.  Even a vegetarian curry will at least get her full of healthy MCTs, and I bet you can get her to eat some whitefish or chicken breast cooked in it.  You'll probably want to omit the fish sauce at first because it's tricky to get the amount right.

Eric:

I'm not trolling.  When someone is losing both fat and muscle mass because they're eating a nutritionally inadequate diet, they're eating their own bodies. 

That's how metabolism works.  It doesn't matter if that stearic acid in your bloodstream came from beef you ate or your own fat cells, and it doesn't matter if that leucine in your bloodstream came from beef you ate or your own muscle tissue.  If your body needs nutrients, it will disassemble itself to supply them.

None of this is controversial.  Read about the Minnesota Starvation Experiment, which produced "The Biology Of Human Starvation", a two-volume, 1400 page report:

"The men became nervous, anxious, apathetic, withdrawn, impatient, self-critical with distorted body images and even feeling overweight, moody, emotional and depressed. A few even mutilated themselves, one chopping off three fingers in stress. They lost their ambition and feelings of adequacy, and their cultural and academic interests narrowed. They neglected their appearance, became loners and their social and family relationships suffered. They lost their senses of humor, love and compassion. Instead, they became obsessed with food, thinking, talking and reading about it constantly; developed weird eating rituals; began hoarding things; consumed vast amounts of coffee and tea; and chewed gum incessantly (as many as 40 packages a day). Binge eating episodes also became a problem as some of the men were unable to continue to restrict their eating in their hunger."

Does any of this sound familiar?

But let's return to the initial euphoria, when your body still has reserves to burn.  This is why fasting is so addictive, particularly to people on low-fat 'health food' diets: eating their own flesh is the most wholesome meal they get!  Paleo people do IF sometimes, but we don't have that nearly sexual drive to repeatedly starve ourselves for a week or more -- because we're already eating delicious, nutritious fatty meat.

(An aside: the one saving grace of the ridiculous high-fructose fruitarian diet is that it's a high-fat diet in practice: their bodies are converting much of that sugar into (gasp!) triglycerides full of saturated fat.  I bet I could make a delicious foie gras out of a fruitarian's fatty liver...gavaging yourself with bananas is just as effective as gavaging a goose with corn.  Personally I prefer to give my liver a holiday and simply eat the fats.)

I freely admit (and said so at the very bottom): "Yes, I know that it is possible to maintain a moderately healthy vegan life through creative supplementation, the use of highly processed industrial products like ‘soy protein’, and a constant stream of fruits and vegetables out of season from halfway across the world."  Some people get it right: I know a few who do.

But a lot more succumb to raw food or fruitarian guru bullshit -- or simply don't understand all the nuances of things like bioavailable B12, EPA and DHA, and vitamin K2-MK4, and end up in the cycle I describe.  Demyelinating your nervous system isn't a good long-term strategy.

JS 

PS: Names aren't important: they come and go. The TV personality who's vegan this month will be on a gimmick diet next month. And I'm not here to start fights: I'm here to debunk myths, and offer support to those who want to jump the fence but are afraid to leave the herd behind.

Bookmark and Share
March 3, 2011
5:45 am
Melissa
Guest

Occasional autophagy isn't so bad. In fact it might prevent cancer. Eventually you do need to rebuild though.

Bookmark and Share
March 3, 2011
10:55 am
Cornelius
Guest

@Elenor: I am very sorry to hear that, but unfortunately many people need to feel special in some way, and for some it is through hypochondria. "I can't eat this, I don't eat that, and I won't eat the other thing... ain't I special?"

But all is not lost. I have a number of friends who were vegans, vegetarians, or raw foodies, and all of them finally got tired of, well, being tired all the time, for the most part. In the worst case one of them developed a physical nervous disorder, but it "miraculously" went away when he started eating meat again. Go figure.:P

It's kind of like a drug addiction, but instead of going through withdrawals when they try to kick it, after (at worst) a couple of days for their digestive and alimentary systems to get back to normal, and perhaps a couple of weeks for their brains to do the same, they go through raptures.

Don't worry, most people wise up before they do themselves any permanent damage.

Bookmark and Share
March 3, 2011
11:03 am
Cornelius
Guest

@Melissa,

Yes, occasional autophagy isn't bad at all, if the tissue your body is consuming is fat. If your body is consuming muscle to get the nutrients it needs to survive, however, that is bad.

Bookmark and Share
March 3, 2011
3:26 pm
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2105
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
Offline

Melissa:

Absolutely intermittent fasting does some good: hormesis is real.  It's the same reason exercise is good (body rebuilds after stress) and polyphenols are good (body mounts antioxidative response to small doses of toxin).  But a 24-36 hour fast, in which muscle mass is conserved, is far different than a 7-10 day fast that requires self-cannibalization -- or worse, what is effectively a multi-month fast due to nutrient deprivation.

None of this is news to you: I'm just explaining it for the benefit of my readers. Thanks for stopping by!

Cornelius:

Food habits are just as persistent as drug addictions.  And just like an addiction, you can't change the addict: they have to change themselves.  You can open the door, but they have to walk through it.

JS

Bookmark and Share
March 6, 2011
4:56 pm
EdwinB
Guest

JS, kudos on the site brother, found you today via your comment. You are doing some good work here. Aloha.

Bookmark and Share
March 6, 2011
7:56 pm
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2105
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
Offline

Mahalo, Edwin. Be welcome here.

Bookmark and Share
March 8, 2011
7:20 pm
No such thing as a V
Guest

[...] Have you all checked out J. Stanton's blog on why Vegans are cannibals? Seem they might be eating Soylent Green. ...how do you look, feel, and perform? -- Robb Wolf [...]

Bookmark and Share
March 9, 2011
10:17 am
Ravi
Guest

i would forgive you even if you did identify for bashing vegans. - but my main comment here is that i sincerely agree with your post - it's excellent - but please, NO ONE is a victim - and that argument is very tired.

From a practical standpoint (with ALL the info at our internet fingertips) as well as from a spiritual standpoint, claiming anyone to be a victim is degrading the human experience and potential of free will. everyone CAN think for themselves if they give it a go - it's our birthright as free-will beings -

that vegans and other DO NOT use their god-given (lower-case g) abilities in no way makes them a victim to anyone else but-- themselves -

but - this digression could get volatile i know - not meant to distract - just not to let people off the hook for clearly stupid self-defeating behavior.

Bookmark and Share
March 9, 2011
1:54 pm
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2105
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
Offline

Ravi:

The vegan evangelists are, for the most part, making demonstrably false claims, and I have no problem repeatedly bashing people who make false claims. (The CSPI, for instance.)

However, there are a lot of people who get sucked into believing those false claims, especially when the mainstream media dutifully parrots all their propaganda while marginalizing and mocking the science-based alternatives.  'Paleo' is still mocked as the 'caveman diet' and treated as a lunatic fringe, while Michael Pollan ("Mostly plants") and even full-on vegans like Jonathan Safran Foer get major mainstream coverage, positive reviews, and big publicity pushes.

And, as I've said before, vegans at least understand that there is a problem with our modern industrial system of food production, even if their solutions don't fix the problem (eating industrially produced corn, soy, and wheat yourself isn't much better than feeding it to cows).  

So I refuse to bag on them for making an effort, however misguided.  I prefer to show them the way out, and only bag on the ones that spread misinformation.

JS

Bookmark and Share
March 14, 2011
4:18 am
Carla
Guest

Wow, thank you for this article

Bookmark and Share
March 17, 2011
11:06 am
First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2105
Member Since:
February 22, 2010
Offline

Carla: 

Glad you enjoyed it! And I love your last article "Call The Paleo Police." It's especially irritating when the person in question isn't 'paleo' at all.

It's also a good reminder to myself not to be self-righteous or dogmatic about it.  I'm sure that's just as insufferable.

JS

Bookmark and Share
March 24, 2011
5:32 am
Pskaiy
Guest

Would have been nice to have seen some (credible and reputable) reference sources for this article.

Bookmark and Share
Forum Timezone: America/Los_Angeles

Most Users Ever Online: 86

Currently Online:
6 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1681

Members: 3423

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 2

Topics: 247

Posts: 7159

Administrators: J. Stanton: 2105