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You Are A Radical, And So Am I: Paleo Reaches The Ominous "Stage 3"
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June 18, 2011
2:48 pm
Chris
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LofC:
It crosses my mind daily... But I'm with JS on this one - I think I'd jump ship to somewhere else. New Zealand seems promising (and has LOTS of outdoor things for us to do).

America has kind of created a funny atmosphere in the world hasn't it though? Even being from "liberal" California where things are a lot different, we feel the effects of the greater conscience as it were. I know a lot of local farmers here (thank goodness for them, otherwise I'd go insane) - and they're constantly getting pressure to conform from the government while at the same time getting pressure from consumers here to NOT.

JS:
Most definitely - if there is one thing I want on the next ballot, it's the elimination of subsidies. If people want a free market - LET'S MAKE IT A FREE MARKET and let *it* decide.

June 19, 2011
8:34 am
Canibais e Reis &raq
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[...] You Are A Radical, And So Am I: Paleo Reaches The Ominous “Stage 3″ [...]

June 19, 2011
1:36 pm
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Halifax, UK
Gnoll
Forum Posts: 364
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June 5, 2011
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Huh! Free market ...

Even pro-laissez faire governments constantly fiddle with the market, it's never going to be free. It's a market ... and markets have sellers (and shoppers). The government is on the side of the seller, not the shopper. Those people have money and lots of it ... and politicians do like money. This doesn't come as a great surprise to people like me - we've spent many years in the full knowledge that our governments are NOT on our side.

Regarding fuel, we have a similar thing here with something called LPG. It's a bi-product of petrol production, almost akin to petrol, can run in petrol engines with some conversion and it's heavily subsidised. It's also NOT taken off.

Bio-ethanol is again something which has not taken off, despite the flex fuel cars offered by Vauxhall (the UK's Opel, a GM owned company and one of the largest, most popular car manufacturers in the UK) and SAAB (part of the same overall company at the time and essentially the same cars ... much like Chevrolet and Cadillac). We did read about some food scares in Italy, where grain would not be available for pasta given how much land is being used for the production of bio-ethanol.

Living in the Ice Age
http://livingintheiceage.pjgh.co.uk

June 19, 2011
5:19 pm
js290
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@Paul Halliday...
Question: how much government does it take to ruin a laissez-faire free market?
Answer: Any amount.
There definitely are no free markets here.

June 20, 2011
12:27 am
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First-Eater
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Tinkers:

You're absolutely right, and the sickness industry is worth a whole another article in itself.

Chris, Paul, js290:

The situation as it stands is a very solid argument for the fact that our government doesn't represent the will of the people: it represents the will of money.  And the problem with complete laissez-faire is that corporations have just as much incentive to pervert the free market as governments do.

Free markets are great...but they don't maintain themselves, since subverting them is always more profitable than competing fairly.  Furthermore, any regulatory agency is subject to corruption.  There's no easy solution: one cannot simply offload the responsibility of maintaining freedom, equality, justice, or human rights.

JS

June 20, 2011
3:23 am
eddie
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things are looking up in the uk though, the government are looking to healthy eating experts for advice
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/12/mcdonalds-pepsico-help-health-policy

June 20, 2011
3:53 am
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Halifax, UK
Gnoll
Forum Posts: 364
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June 5, 2011
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This is the board that will be responsible for providing health, diet and nutritional information, guidelines and standards - absolutely no Doctors, but every seat filled with representatives from food corporations! How this is not regarded as scandelous, I don't know. Mind you, Lansley's Health Reform Bill is now in tatters so this might actually be old news. I'm an NHS employee and so I am duty bound not to talk much about this.

More worrying is the dissolution of the Food Standards Agency (part of the bonfire of the quangos) leaving us with absolutely no idea whatsoever about the origin, production and ethics of the food we buy.

The Food Standards Agency had gone a long way towards good and obvious food labelling - origin, production and ethics. Woodland reared chickens and eggs are easy to find, grass fed beef, naturally reared pork and so on. Once they're gone, there will be a massive backwards step in our ability to select supermarket food with clear information and clear labels.

Living in the Ice Age
http://livingintheiceage.pjgh.co.uk

June 20, 2011
4:11 am
Ray
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"By eschewing commodity crops and advocating the consumption of grass-fed meat, pastured eggs, and local produce, we are making several very, very powerful enemies."
I very much agree with this statement , the question is what represents a paleo diet , it is not as very straightforward as one would expect , various aboriginal communities consume different levels of protein , fats and carbs and the only way we can find out what is right for an individual is to find out our genetic heritage diet [ just about impossible ] of our individual ancestors or trial and error , maybe paleo is whole fresh foods incorporating all three major nutrients , this i think was the outcome of weston price's journeys around the world and others , ie :

The Kitava study
The residents of Kitava lived exclusively on root vegetables (yam, sweet potato, taro, tapioca), fruit (banana, papaya, pineapple, mango, guava, water melon, pumpkin), vegetables, fish and coconuts [27-29]. Less than 0.2% of the caloric intake came from Western food, such as edible fats, dairy products, sugar, cereals, and alcohol, compared with roughly 75% in Sweden [30]. The intake of vitamins, minerals and soluble fibre was therefore very high, while the total fat consumption was low, about 20 E% [28], as was the intake of salt (40-50 mmol Na/10 MJ compared with 100-250 in Sweden). Due to the high level of coconut consumption, saturated fat made up an equally large portion of the overall caloric intake as is the case in Sweden. However, lauric acid was the dominant dietary saturated fatty acid as opposed to palmitic acid in Sweden. Malnutrition and famine did not seem to occur.
http://www.staffanlindeberg.com/TheKitavaStudy.html

June 20, 2011
10:15 am
Asclepius
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Ray - even our genetic heritage may not be sufficient to determine an 'optimal' diet (not that I think you could identify such a thing). Phenotypic expression and the whole world of epigenetics suggest that what your ancestors just a couple of generations ago could influence how you develop now. For those third and fourth generation modern 'neoliths', this is a serious confounder:

https://medical.wesrch.com/User_images/Pdf/62X_1264484543.pdf

June 20, 2011
3:43 pm
TruthandJustice
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What I don't understand is where the idea of subsidies came from in the first place, and how anyone thought it was a good idea to implement. All a subsidy is is the use of public tax dollars to pay for goods or services that most people do not want or are not willing to pay for at the price that providers/manufacturers are charging. If a company can't provide their products/services at a price people are willing to pay, then why should the government intervene? Let them go out of business and let consumers spend their own money on products/services they actually want.

I think the problem is that many politicians think we're too stupid to make our own decisions in life and that we need them to be our nanny. What I want to know is where in the Constitution does it say that government has a right to spend our money and tell us what to eat? How ignorant these policy makers in D.C. are might actually be funny if not for the fact that the rest of us are the ones that are paying for their stupidity.

June 20, 2011
6:44 pm
Define yourself, que
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[...] are few, but passionate, and will storm to the defense of their way of living, which currently is either ignored or actively disparaged by the rest of society. They took that US News study personally. Why? Because they are not “on” paleo, or [...]

June 21, 2011
1:21 am
eddie
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truthandjustice: i believe that it stems from electioneering in the 70's when food price fluctuation was such a major concern that it became part of the election campaign to prevent the sudden rise in price of food.
i'm from uk but i follow tom naughtons blogs (fat head and his own more political one) which is where i picked this up from.

June 21, 2011
3:27 am
Wanderer
Forum Posts: 2
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June 16, 2011
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Actually, TruthAndJustice, you can thank FDR for farming subsidies, which were supposed to help farmers make it through the Depression as well as provide food to the masses (and were supposed to END once the Depression ended). Of course, they never should have been implemented in the first place, and they never went away.

June 21, 2011
8:29 am
Karen P.
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Excellent observations and so eloquently put.

We're making these enemies because it's nearly impossible for these food companies and producers to make money off of Paleo. How do you market real food? And yes, the incredulity of my friends and family is interesting to see. What is so threatening to them?

All we can do is live by example and keep fighting the good fight.

June 21, 2011
9:42 am
UK
Gnoll
Forum Posts: 47
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June 14, 2011
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@Karen. P - "it’s nearly impossible for these food companies and producers to make money off of Paleo"

I am sure they'll try. We have already seen WeightWatchers let in paleo by the back door.

I am surprise so many shoe manufacturers are selling 'barefoot' shoes with a straight face because not only is that an oxymoron, but it also goes firmly against everything they have been telling us for the past 40 years with regard to cushioning and shock absorption in footwear.

June 22, 2011
2:55 am
Mac
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So, you can't really compare giant agri-business products and subsidies with the pasture raised beef industry, and especially if you're looking at small, locally-raised cattle ranches. Take a look at the big cattle corporations and their subsidies and show me a cost comparison, or compare small grain farmers with small ranchers, then I might listen.

June 22, 2011
3:57 am
Andrés
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It seems to me that Tom Naughton's insight (http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2011/06/11/weekend-bonus-anti-war-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-322708) is also applicable here: "On one hand, it looks like a pretty big conspiracy theory. On the other hand, if you’re not a little paranoid these days, it means you’re not paying attention."

For those of you who haven't seen it yet, "Burzynski: Cancer is Serious Business” free till Monday 20:

Certainly I am "a little" paranoid now.

June 22, 2011
4:11 am
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Halifax, UK
Gnoll
Forum Posts: 364
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June 5, 2011
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Are the anthropological scientists getting involved, too? Previously, they were of the opinion that ancient man had little peridondal disease. But now ... new findings show:

 

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/06/the-icemans-last-meal.html

"... and was plagued by both periodontal disease and cavities ..."

 

 

Living in the Ice Age
http://livingintheiceage.pjgh.co.uk

June 22, 2011
6:41 pm
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First-Eater
Forum Posts: 2045
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February 22, 2010
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eddie:

It's basically the same in America: check out who sponsors the American Dietetic Association sometime.

Paul:

Enforcing truth in labeling is one of the few legitimate functions performed by modern governments.  I should be able to ingest what I want...but I should be able to know exactly what I'm ingesting.

Ray:

This week's article addresses some of those issues.

Asclepius:

Epigenetics are scary.  The sins of the fathers, etc.

T&J, eddie, Jan:

Exactly.  American farm subsidies were originally designed to keep land out of production so that prices would stay relatively constant.  In the 1970s, Earl Butz (instead of repealing them) retooled them to reward volume production, a practice not coincidentally best performed by large agribusinesses.  King Corn covers this in detail.

Karen:

Yes.  Real food is best produced locally, by small farmers who can most efficiently use their land and water resources.  Industrial agriculture is only "efficient" if you ignore the fossil fuel inputs and the destruction of soil and water.

And as far as friends and family, bread is the staff of life.  We're opposing some very old and powerful cultural norms.

Asclepius:

There are so many different kinds of shoes that it's easy to market them as "yet another shoe you need to add to your collection".

Mac:

To whom are you responding?  I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Andrés:

The free viewing period has been extended.  I haven't had time to watch it yet, but it's on my list.

Paul:

From the article: 'The cavities, Seiler said in his talk, confirm that the Iceman ate a diet abounding in carbohydrates, such as bread or cereal, and reveal that he possessed a "heavy bacterial dose on these teeth."'

That's exactly what we're saying...bread and cereal = cavities.  It's well understood that mouth bacteria feed on sugars.

JS

June 23, 2011
5:08 am
Thursday Roundup | T
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[...] J. Stanton at Gnolls, You are a radical, and so am I. I’ve also been noticing this incredible media backlash, not only against Paleo adherents but [...]

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